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  1. #1
    Registered User DLLNP's Avatar
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    Bound to be a controversial post

    This is definitely a contentious issue but I think it is still worth having a discussion about!


  2. #2
    BPnet Veteran Lord Sorril's Avatar
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    Re: Bound to be a controversial post

    Ethics and morality differ between individuals and societies. The only contentious issue I see here is making broad generalized statements based on one specific viewpoint.
    *.* TNTC

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  4. #3
    Registered User gl1tterg0re's Avatar
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    Re: Bound to be a controversial post

    I believe that the only morphs that are unethical are morphs like the spider gene, enigma (in leos), or any other morph that causes neurological or physical problems for the animal. Even if there's a chance the animal won't show symptoms, I don't see the point in risking it.
    Last edited by gl1tterg0re; 07-31-2020 at 09:37 PM.

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  6. #4
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    When the creator of the video said that yellow belly was a better morph to breed because it would survive in the wild (supper YB, supper inconspicuous), I kind of figured he is a really smart person when it comes to biology but he doesn’t really understand morph breeding. Or maybe he was thinking about breeding a few decades ago.

    As an aspiring breeder I think morphs can actually add to genetic diversity. I think breeding is about combining morphs in the best way possible to create something awesome. Now, I produced my first clutch this year. Bamboo x citrus pastel fire. I produced two bamboo citrus pastel fire babies. I’ll keep one of them. If I keep a male I would never breed it to the mother and risk super fires, I wouldn’t want white snakes. The same could be said if I keep a female, I would never breed her to the male because I wouldn’t want super bamboo. I would never breed siblings for the same reason. The real reason I won’t line breed them however, is that line breeding here would add nothing. Once a breeder makes an awesome snake many modern breeders automatically think “what can I add?” And “how can I make it better?”. When a new recessive pops up, once it’s proven, everyone wants to start adding traits. JKR didn’t make the Batman by line breeding clown to clown. Look at monsoon and sunset. When I first started keeping you could only get the single gene snake. Now look. Their are all kinds of monsoon+ and sunset+. To make those snakes, you need to add genetic diversity to add the traits.

    We also need to realize that nobody breeds ball pythons in order to release them back into the wild. Would you breed chihuahuas to release them back into the wild? For all intensive purposes, ball pythons, bearded dragons, and leopard geckos are domesticated animals. The morphs don’t have to serve any purpose or allow a ball python to survive in the wild, because it will never be returned to the wild.

    Now, I do think ethical breeding is a question that can be debated. I think the idea that morph breeding leads to inbred snakes is kind of dated. I would only do it on extremely rare occasions. If you keep a good collection, you really don’t need to line breed.

  7. #5
    Telling it like it is! Stewart_Reptiles's Avatar
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    Once someone creates a false narrative to back their argument that’s when they lose me, no matter how well the argument is put together or supported by facts.

    The false narrative here is to mislead people into thinking that line breeding or inbreeding is what happens with the vast majority of mutations currently produced.
    Deborah Stewart

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  9. #6
    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    I am honestly not overly concerned with morph breeding. I AM concerned that it seems like every new ball python owner out there seems to want to breed.
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  11. #7
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    Re: Bound to be a controversial post

    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin View Post
    I am honestly not overly concerned with morph breeding. I AM concerned that it seems like every new ball python owner out there seems to want to breed.

    This times 10000! People look at Morph Market or how to make money breeding snakes on you tube. An they think they'll make 10K the first year. Look at the prices on you local Facebook market place or Craigslist. Same goes for mini pigs, dogs or whatever is in this month.

    Now, not all hobby breeders are bad. Without them many would never get into snakes. A healthy $15 normal is better then the $99 sickly pet store normal.

    An yes, I do breed blue rats because I get $12+ compared to my $2 feeders.

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  13. #8
    Registered User Namea's Avatar
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    My personal opinion is that breeders who mill out morphs are unethical. Often snakes are kept in poor conditions and inbred over and over to get the desired morphs. Not only that but less desirable offspring or more common looking ones are often "discarded". I've unfortunately had to do several clear-outs of unlicensed breeders and I've seen people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars but don't keep their snakes in humane conditions. Now there are many ethical breeders who do not fit this bill, they aren't hard to find but unfortunately they tend to be less vocal than the shady type.

    I've also seen how the market has been flooded with morphs that often have defects. The other side is of course that the more morphs are popularized the less people are willing to settle for anything other than the "prettiest" designer snake. To me this is wrong. Yes, morphs are gorgeous but if you're getting the snake only for aesthetics that's a problem.

    At the very least those looking for morphs need to make sure the breeders they work with are humane, reputable, and completely transparent. Don't buy from a breeder who has the same images of the same "available hatchlings" all the time. Likely they're churning out inbred snakes and passing them off as the ones listed on their site. If possible don't purchase online at all, go in person to the breeder and ask to see the conditions in which their animals are kept. Observe, examine, and possibly handle any that you may be interested in taking home and don't pay until you're leaving WITH your snake. If possible don't go to the breeder unless you are prepared to bring your new scale baby home that very day. You're better off getting a baby at petco than with a shady breeder.

    I see on these and many other forums people who only have the designer snakes and I won't lie, it makes me sick to my stomach a little. Did you want the snake because you connected with it and wanted to give it a good home like any other pet or just because it was "Pretty".

    I also see amateurs breeding for their own morphs and that's even worse. No one should be breeding snakes unless they know exactly what they are doing.

    On the other hand, I do understand how the genetics can be exciting and how morphs are gorgeous. I just don't know if manipulating a living creature like that is worth it.
    Last edited by Namea; 08-01-2020 at 11:36 PM.
    Some girls were horse girls growing up. I was a snake girl.

    Daughter of a herpetologist, student of the "Snake Man" Al Robbins, lover of all animals.
    Almost done with my DVM! Finally!

    I specialize in rehabilitation and work with local fish and wildlife for rehab/release of native species. For exotics I work with reptile sanctuaries to rehabilitate and rehome to either qualified private owners or humane licensed facilities. I do not believe in fatal population control.
    Please feel free to message me with any questions. I don't know everything but I can point you towards resources.
    Do not message me with images of a snake you killed to identify it. I will ignore you.

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  15. #9
    BPnet Senior Member Mr. Misha's Avatar
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    Re: Bound to be a controversial post

    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin View Post
    I am honestly not overly concerned with morph breeding. I AM concerned that it seems like every new ball python owner out there seems to want to breed.
    Agreed. I think breeding should be highly discouraged by our community and is completely out of control.

    Instead, I constantly see encouragement to hoard and breed these snakes. Posts about buying 10 BPs in a month for someone who barely has started in this hobby. Months later come the "collection" sales. Rinse, repeat.

    I'm not against hobby breeding but don't just breed and dump these creatures!

    If you really want to breed then buy a juvenile female and raise her for at least 3 years. If you still have the passion to breed, then go for it.
    0.1 Reg. BP Het. Albino (Faye),
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  17. #10
    BPnet Veteran Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Bound to be a controversial post

    Quote Originally Posted by Namea View Post
    ...

    I see on these and many other forums people who only have the designer snakes and I won't lie, it makes me sick to my stomach a little. Did you want the snake because you connected with it and wanted to give it a good home like any other pet or just because it was "Pretty".

    I also see amateurs breeding for their own morphs and that's even worse. No one should be breeding snakes unless they know exactly what they are doing...
    I couldn't agree more. I cannot say these designer snakes aren't "eye candy" but the snakes themselves would be better off if most people only bought photos/posters of them.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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