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  1. #1
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    NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) *negative*

    First: Yes this is my first post here on a brand new account. I was asked to come here and share this when it was noticed over on Facebook. I'm happy to answer any questions but forgive me if the answers are frustrated or if I misunderstand you. Since I chose to go with Facebook first, well, you can imagine the bizarre DMs and various other messages I'm getting.

    Original Post

    New England Reptile Distributors

    *Negative*: After spending over $1500 for ball pythons we received 5 of 5 snakes all with nidovirus. These snakes were kept in quarantine for 45 days at which time one became symptomatic. We continued quarantine and had the animal tested both by a local veterinarian and also through an independent lab. Results were shared with NERD.

    All animals were re-tested for nidovirus. None of the animals I own tested positive at the time of testing and they have not tested positive since. All NERD snakes tested positive for a second time. The animals were moved to another facility. Since January one has expired for unknown reasons and another has had to be euthanized. Discovery of the virus was February 28th.

    I normally test within 24 hours (because of various health guarantees) but had a very busy work week and postponed it to the end of their quarantine.

    Screenshots below. Plenty of receipts and nidovirus test results if any further proof is necessary.

    First reply in thread from Jeremy Turgeon, facilities Manager at NERD, via original post:

    Thanks for the tag. Alright, so, for anyone who is unaware, I am the facility manager at NERD, and I was the person who handled the communication with Elijah since I am friends with one of the researchers of Nidovirus at the University of Florida.

    Upon the initial message, We were told that one of the snakes he received tested positive for Nidovirus. I asked for him to keep us informed, and days later, he let us know that all 5 animals had tested positive.

    I asked if they were all symptomatic as we didn’t notice anything while the animals were here (we would never knowingly send a sick animal out). He told me only one was, and then listed his observations of each animal.

    He told me the animals were tested via “VetDNA”. A service I told him I was not familiar with for Nido testing. (I have the entire conversation if needed). I told him that of course this information was all troubling - especially so with the research for this virus still being very much in its infancy. I expressed that as there is no cure for this and the research is still so young the next best options are protocols during collection maintenance. Last I spoke with my friend at UF he said there were over 30 species and well over 100 strains (in counting). The more detailed a test result can be the better prepared the keeper can be when dealing with this virus. I told him I would touch base with my buddy to discuss any new findings regarding Nido.

    Elijah told me he was certainly concerned as he was hoping to work with other python species and was concerned about inter species transmission as it has been documented before. I asked him to keep me informed of test results and email me, and if possible secondary tests.

    We talked more about the virus and how to deal with it in quite a friendly manner.

    He told me he spoke to his “lab guy” and that the tests done at VetDNA are a “PCR test with some sciencey-complicated things” and that a possible false positive was basically zero chance.

    He also talked about that possibilities of NERD preemptively testing animals before they were sent out, which is not feesable - however it is always a solid option to test your animals as you get them. He told me he knew it wasn’t feesable for the collection here - but just for animals going out (still not feesable) and then said he recommended VetDNA for my personal collection as the tests are affordable. “A boid package for $60 and nidovirus alone is $25.”

    We continued to have a conversation about the virus and how things can be handled.

    On April 16th 4:36PM Elijah informed me that 2 of the snakes he purchased were euthanized... again our conversation continued as information discussed. Again, I can post the entire conversation here.



    I will add this...
    Nidovirus is a tricky and frustrating issue that is industry wide. There are studies being done now of it in wild populations of snakes now. It has been stated to me numerous times (even publicly at the Nidovorus Panel discussion at SECF) that if you have more than 10 (originally 20, but things have changed) snakes (especially from various sources) you are incredibly likely to have the virus floating around. Your animals may be asymptomatic. Practicing good husbandry protocols is the best way to avoid this from spreading or possibly spreading in your collection. I’m not trying to hype this up or scare anyone. But with research being still so new there is much to learn about this. I’d be happy to explain things further and share the full conversation I had with Elijah.


    Reply in thread from Jeremy Turgeon, facilities Manager at NERD, via original post:

    I will also add, a major concern is also Nido species or strains jumping from one snakes species to another. We are VERY careful at NERD with husbandry protocols. With a collection as large and diverse as we have, it is imperative to do so. We have not seen signs of our animals expressing symptoms of Nido. Again, we would never knowingly send an animal out that is ill.

    This disease is, as it seems, existing within the natural gut flora of these animals without expressing itself in a negative way. It is always important to remember with all living animals bacteria exist! These are not sterile vessels, they are living creatures. Keepers need to do their due diligence and again practice safe husbandry protocols to avoid cross contamination from one animal to another and from one species to another.

    Another reply in thread from Jeremy Turgeon, facilities Manager at NERD, via original post:

    Let me be VERY clear! From the mouths of the researchers at UF! If you have over 10 snakes (formerly thought 20, but at the rate new strains and species are being found, it has changed, especially if you get snakes from multiple difference sources) the LIKELIHOOD of you having a Nido-positive animal increases GREATLY! I believe the sample size at UF back in February was LESS THAN 1000 reptiles (not just snakes). Think about that for a second. Over 30 species and over 100 strains found in LESS than 1000 animals. So! Let’s look at numbers. We have nothing to hide - if these animals that were quarantined and away from other reptiles tested positive, then that’s that. You may test your animals with the best test and get a negative if the species or strain of Nido has yet to be found. This is for KNOWN SPECIES/STRAINS! During my conversations with Elijah there were three more strains of Nido discovered - I believe it was within a week!

    It is our job as keepers to ensure we take the right precautions and install proper protocols during enclosure cleaning and general maintenance. It is also important, especially as the research continues, that we realize - with how little information IS known and false negatives being a possible issue that the better tests you can get, the more information you have. And testing once isn’t enough! We have all heard the horror stories of what Nido can do - so we need to educate ourselves CONSTANTLY as new information will be anxiously awaited.

    Thread on Facebook

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/2415...6252/?sfnsn=mo

    Media

    Please see the Facebook post. Sorry but I do not have the time to transload these to an image host at the moment. I will try to add them later.

    Final thoughts

    As mentioned, this is pretty exhausting. If there is something else I can provide please let me know.

    The takeaway here should be that nidovirus *is still* pervasive throughout our industry. Jeremy is a very knowledgeable person with great insights.

    The animals I own have been tested before and will undergo testing again. No one has a good indicator of what the incubation period is for this disease but 30 days has been suggested. Re-testing is being done monthly and all NERD animals have tested positive multiple times while other animals here continue to test negative. I have no indication that nidovirus was present here prior to the NERD snakes. There is no indication it is present here after their relocation. I also accept that I should have tested them immediately but misjudged and accept fault.

    The NERD animals were relocated from my home after testing. Three remain "healthy looking" and do not skip meals. One was euthanized while experiencing severe respiratory illness. The other expired for unknown reasons.

    This is expensive, stressful, and time consuming. Re-testing every 30 days has been a nightmare especially considering outside circumstances affecting coordinating mail delivery, vet scheduling, randoms on Facebook letting me know they want to simultaneously fight me while adding me to their Do-Not-Sell lists.... It's been a wild ride.
    Last edited by elsn; 05-01-2020 at 05:53 AM.

  2. #2
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    I read as many posts and reviewed the 'proof' in that Facebook thread.

    Well, all I have to say is, NERD should have handled it better. They lack the basic customer service skill it seems. If I bought 5 of my snakes and they have nido (I'm just a regular everyday pet keeper), and their responses are walls of texts about how nido works, I would be furious. I would have not cared about who and what his "buddy in UF" had said. Where is the peer review report on such claim? Not saying it is 100% wrong but when you lost your snakes, the last thing a customer wants to hear is being lectured on how the virus works. OP, you have the patience for it but for many people including myself, I find his response very much lacking respect and condescending. The appropriate response would be an apology, a statement that they will review their quarantine and health check procedure prior to shipping the animal, and offer a refund or discount for future purchases to make amends. Whether or not they are at fault is MOOT. The snakes are in your care for several months and you did not test them upon arrival. So be it. And they may be right that most collections may have them. But that does not void accountability on the seller's part, no matter how small, as much as from the buyer. How a seller handles such situations speak volumes for others like me who may want to buy from them someday.

    Truly, I am disappointed in how they handled the situation.
    Last edited by Cheesenugget; 05-01-2020 at 09:00 AM.

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    Re: NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) *negative*

    To be fair it was roughly 45 days before they were tested out of a 60 day quarantine and not months. I neglected to test them on arrival (very busy week) and that was my fault. I understand that fell out of any possible health guarantees from NERD but..... there's a reason I paid so much for NERD snakes, right?

    Obviously naive in hindsight. I still don't expect a refund, partial refund, or compensation and expect that all I'll ever get is a big fat Do Not Sell flag (but that's not very concerning).

    As you saw in the thread NERD continues to refuse to test before shipping. That part is still mind blowing to me - testing is cheaper than return shipping and shipping (twice, in a short period mind you) can trigger severe health concerns in nidovirus infected animals. Why refuse to test? Jeremy is completely knowledgeable about testing and how this virus "works". The test takes minutes. Fishhead Labs themselves even popped in to mention it.

    I talked to Jeremy throughout February, March, and April to try to find alternatives or some action we could take and each round of testing always comes back with the NERD animals being the only ones positive.

    I can't send them back to NERD. I can't keep them. Their current housing is temporary at best at another location. The remaining answer is to have them all euthanized once things get a little more normal in the world.

  5. #4
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    It is their business and they are entitled to run it how they want, even if it is not ideal. I agree, testing the animal prior to shipping would save a lot of time, frustration and heartache. However, if what they say is true about different strains of the virus, including those that have not been discovered yet, the testing results would only limited to what cam be found. Meaning, in their perspective, they may still be shipping out a potential sick animal after it was tested negative for a strain that we are aware of and limited to the test capability. Again, it is their company. Maybe they will look into this after their conversation with you. Maybe not.

    I find changes are more likely to happen if it hurts the business bottom line. Even if you did not want the refund, some sort of compensation on their end shows that they are taking you seriously. Because they did not offer, and you did not push for it (You could donate the money to a reptile rescue), unless they step up and take some responsibility, there is no reason for them to change just because you want them to. They make enough money and have enough loyal fans to keep doing what they are doing.

    Sucks for the poor snakes. I am sorry that this is happening to you and to these animals.

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    Re: NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) *negative*

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesenugget View Post
    I agree, testing the animal prior to shipping would save a lot of time, frustration and heartache. However, if what they say is true about different strains of the virus, including those that have not been discovered yet, the testing results would only limited to what cam be found. Meaning, in their perspective, they may still be shipping out a potential sick animal after it was tested negative for a strain that we are aware of and limited to the test capability.

    I find changes are more likely to happen if it hurts the business bottom line.
    I have confidence that what Jeremy says is true. I also personally do not believe that Jeremy, Rob, et al would toss a visibly sick snake in a box and go on their way.

    You have to consider that a non-zero positive rate (based on the capabilities of the test) still has to beat an "out of sight out of mind" policy, right? I tested for and detected it but they can't with the exact same technology?

    Walking Tinley NARBC with known-unknown animals from a building full of known-unknowns is a bit opposite to Jeremy's words. Pushing snakes out the door without even a basic test is, too.

    Even scarier, according to all the DNS banter from randoms in the thread, it's apparently a community wide belief that it's better to dump unhealthy snakes on customers than spend any money on testing.

    If we can get people testing the two-way shipping would definitely be a punch to the wallet cost over preemptive testing for known knowns. Upcharge me for the test as an optional service. No problem. Other people can do it.
    Last edited by elsn; 05-01-2020 at 10:55 AM.

  8. #6
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    Thank you for posting here. Unfortunately posts in Facebook groups can be forever altered or deleted by the people who make them. Facebook also clobbers whole groups willy-nilly with little or no warning, which is why the original "FBI" group with years of valuable feedback on buyers, sellers, and scammers no longer exists.

    Not everyone uses Facebook so for those who don't, and who can't log in to see the info at the link you posted, can you please clarify the following:

    - Age/birth year, any history if known (e.g. proven breeder), etc. on each of the five snakes you purchased? Also do you know if these were snakes NERD had for a while and were selling because they had a better morph to put in its place, or if they were purchased to resell? I'm wondering if someone else didn't dump a positive collection on them.

    - The five snakes from NERD were shipped together in one box and then you quarantined them together. After they arrived were any of them ever close to or quarantined with any other snakes? I know it's common for buyers to put new additions through quarantine with snakes already in quarantine, they just reset the quarantine clock when it happens.

    - The timeline for all of this is in your Facebook link but not in your narrative above. Can you please tell us what date the snakes arrived, when the first snake started showing symptoms, date of the test, the date they were moved to a different location, etc?

    Regarding the snakes you have that are positive but not showing symptoms, I will have to do some digging but I thought a few years back I read about a group of researchers doing work on IBD, nido, etc. in snakes and they were actively looking for animals that tested positive. I'll have to see if I can find who that was.

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    Re: NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) *negative*

    Quote Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
    - Age/birth year, any history if known (e.g. proven breeder), etc. on each of the five snakes you purchased? Also do you know if these were snakes NERD had for a while and were selling because they had a better morph to put in its place, or if they were purchased to resell? I'm wondering if someone else didn't dump a positive collection on them.

    - The five snakes from NERD were shipped together in one box and then you quarantined them together. After they arrived were any of them ever close to or quarantined with any other snakes? I know it's common for buyers to put new additions through quarantine with snakes already in quarantine, they just reset the quarantine clock when it happens.

    - The timeline for all of this is in your Facebook link but not in your narrative above. Can you please tell us what date the snakes arrived, when the first snake started showing symptoms, date of the test, the date they were moved to a different location, etc?

    Regarding the snakes you have that are positive but not showing symptoms, I will have to do some digging but I thought a few years back I read about a group of researchers doing work on IBD, nido, etc. in snakes and they were actively looking for animals that tested positive. I'll have to see if I can find who that was.
    These are great questions and I understand your Facebook concern.

    In order as best I can:

    Breeding status
    These were adult proven breeders females and one unknown breeding status male. Adults and proven breeders are a very high risk group because of the exposure to other snakes (breeding) and their general age.

    Jeremy told me prior to buying that all females had successful clutches in 2019.

    The ages were unknown. The male seemed to be a yearling but unknown. The oldest looking female has visible cataracts that were confirmed by veterinary imaging.

    Pictures of the animals included one that simply read "Orion thing" which I assume was a project at NERD.

    Quarantine status
    All 5 arrived in the same box. I actually have an unboxing video somewhere around here. The unboxing video took place in a room with no snakes in it. Shipping box to temporary tubs where they remained.

    They were kept in a separate room in the house with no contact.

    I will state again that no other snake is testing positive.

    Timeline

    Paid for in December. Received in January ("no ship" due to weather, agreed upon when purchasing). Two separate transactions, all snakes showed up in the same box.

    Probably roughly middle of February we became concerned about one snake showing signs of RI (wheezing, etc). A vet appointment was made and a test was run.

    February 28th results received that a symptomatic snake tested positive via Veterinary Molecular Diagnostics. Entire collection tested May 9th. Only the NERD snakes tested positive.

    That weekend they were relocated outside of my home into someone else's short term care where they remain away from any other snakes.

    We continued to re-test in April.

    As supported by Jeremy in the text above we remained in contact throughout these months. He was notified of the initial diagnosis and later notified of deaths. You should not find any large contradictions in the timelines but they may differ by a day or two: I was not contacting him "in real time second by second" from the vet's office, for example.

    Another complete collection round is planned in two weeks.

    Asymptomatic Animals

    I assure you that they can be asymptomatic as indicated by at least one study and also supported via Fishhead Labs. Jeremy also mentions that they can be asymptomatic.

    Edit: As I was typing Pia from Fishhead Labs actually popped into the Facebook thread with this:

    Yeah, personally I know there are many breeders who unknowingly send out animals with nidovirus. Not on purpose but are just looking at outward appearance and not testing and the buyer is taking that chance. Nidovirus positive animals can be sub clinical or asymptotic and not show any outward signs. I know I’m beating a dead horse here but we had an asymptotic green tree python here at Terrestrial & Arboreal that had the highest viral load in our collection. And still is positive and asymptotic 4 years later. We have been very open about our nidovirus outbreak in 2016.
    In the end it comes down to the buyer to be vigilant about the animal and breeder they are buying from. Just my personal opinion ��


    After editing I realize I may have misread your statement. If you know someone looking for live adult asymptomatic pythons definitely let me know.
    Last edited by elsn; 05-01-2020 at 12:02 PM.

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    Re: NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) *negative*

    Quote Originally Posted by elsn View Post
    February 28th results received that a symptomatic snake tested positive via Veterinary Molecular Diagnostics. Entire collection tested May 9th. Only the NERD snakes tested positive.

    That weekend they were relocated outside of my home into someone else's short term care where they remain away from any other snakes.

    We continued to re-test in April.
    The mistake above should be obvious. I typed May but it should read March as today is only May 1st. Oops. You can confirm the date on the RAL results as March 9th.

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    Re: NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) *negative*

    Quote Originally Posted by elsn View Post
    After editing I realize I may have misread your statement. If you know someone looking for live adult asymptomatic pythons definitely let me know.
    Found it: https://www.stengleinlab.org/blog/20...virus_FAQ.html

    It's a few years old so you'll have to contact them to ask if they are still interested.
    Last edited by bcr229; 05-01-2020 at 02:43 PM.

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    Re: NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) *negative*

    Thanks. I don't believe they accept samples or live animals anymore.

    I will definitely email them, though.

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