Septicemia Dehydration Baby Ball Help!

[Buttercup]

I just replied to a couple of others who posted additional questions.

I hope those answers your questions as well.

[Buttercup]

I suspect your snake was harboring a pathogen on arrival or picked one up soon after. Perfect husbandry may have prevented the snake from becoming ill--there is no certainty though.

I think the Vet issuing antibiotics was the textbook move. I suspect they do this because this method works some of the time. I don't agree with this procedure-it either fixes the issue or makes things worse. In this case I suspect it will make things worse, but, I am just guessing based on the small information provided.

I would work on establishing a better setup with ideal temps. and realize that this may be a learning experience.

Thank you for your thoughts & advice.
The vets both said it’s difficult to tell what caused the septicemia.
After discussing the tank set up, they felt it was likely ill when we received him. No way to know though.

They are in lifesaving mode now. This the antibiotics & feeding schedule. Perhaps we should put him down but we felt like if we could save him, we wanted to try. He’s a sweet boy & we’re hoping he can pull through.

People keep talking about perfect husbandry & I honestly don’t know what she/we could have done better.
I wish we had addressed feeding issues earlier. Definitely. We read everything we could & tried every feeding method out there. That’s why the vets thought maybe he was already ill, explaining his lack of eating. Idk.

Can you plz detail what you see as an ideal setup, temps, etc as both vets felt everything was perfect.

Thx, again for the input.

[GoingPostal]

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

A very small tub with undertank heating and tight hides is usually what's recommended for young ball pythons.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I have read & was told by the vets that juveniles are notorious fir being difficult & often are seen for starvation issues

That's actually false feeding issues with young animals seen by vets only have one thing in common, husbandry that does not meet the animal's need, combined to an often misguided owner, that cannot recognize that, which is normal when it is your first snake.

Vets never suggest optimum measure that can help an animal resume feeding naturally they jump the gun and order force feeding and/or tube feeding in extreme cases along with antibitotics....the old I will just prescribe anti-biotics just in case.

Now a red ring on the side may not be scepticimia, scepticimia will be in the majority of cases be first observed on the belly but with an inexperience vet (all vet see snakes but not all are board certified in herp medicine) other things can be mistaken for it as well.

If they were that knowledgeable they would have immidiately have addressed the size of the enclosure for a baby, even if well furnished in 80% of the cases it does not work unless you are an experienced keeper and the first sign will be food refusal.

They would also have never suggested force feeding every other day, that would never be done with a healthy animal that has never had food let alone one that would have health issues, again the toll of force feeding is great, we are talking about gastric juices capable of dissolving bones and fur.

After a while a snake that fails to thrive for whatever reason (husbandry or otherwise), will start becoming lethargic, dehydrated and reach the point of no return and eventually experiencing organ failure.

That animal should actually be euthanize at this stage.

I know it's hard to know who to trust but you can tell a lot on a vet experienced based on what they say, fail to say, address or fail to address and how they go about treatment.

Over the years I have seen a lot of vets making the wrong move based on traditional veterinary medicine and experience of treating dogs and cats, because snakes are usually a small percentage if their practice. From stressful unecessary force feeding to unecesaary anti optics that led to kidney failure etc.

Keep that in mind if you get another animal and you are experiencing feeding issues

[Bogertophis]

Agree ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ and sorry to say I'd be very surprised (but happy!) if this poor little snake pulls thru. That's just a awful LOT for his body to handle, including the well-
intentioned antibiotics. In all likelihood his health was compromised when you received him but no way to be sure...stress & sub-optimal conditions can cause any snake
to become ill that's been apparently (outwardly) healthy. Like any creature (ourselves included), exposure to pathogens that we can fight off if in relatively good health
can become life-threatening if we're simultaneously dealing with significant stress, etc.

In my experience of taking snakes to vets for medical care, the more things that are tried simultaneously, the less favorable the outcome; IMO some over-react & try too many things at once, with the very best of intentions & which may work fine with other animals, but seem to backfire with our fragile snakes. Also, most vets (even those with "snake keeping experience") generally rush to fix the problem with medical options (what they've trained in!) rather than husbandry issues (which take a lot of time to explain & which nets less financial remunerations for them). I really emphasize "TLC" with any new snake of any age.

[MattEvans]

We have 2 thermometers & substrate is kept at clean & tank is kept at proper humidity levels. One side is warm the other side is warmer. Large water dish with clean water. Large hide, 2 smaller hides.

This doesn't sound perfect to me. All heat sources need a thermostat. One cool side and one warm side not warm and warmer. But we haven't got any actual temps to go off. Best wishes for the little guy.

[Buttercup]

That's actually false feeding issues with young animals seen by vets only have one thing in common, husbandry that does not meet the animal's need, combined to an often misguided owner, that cannot recognize that, which is normal when it is your first snake.

Vets never suggest optimum measure that can help an animal resume feeding naturally they jump the gun and order force feeding and/or tube feeding in extreme cases along with antibitotics....the old I will just prescribe anti-biotics just in case.

Now a red ring on the side may not be scepticimia, scepticimia will be in the majority of cases be first observed on the belly but with an inexperience vet (all vet see snakes but not all are board certified in herp medicine) other things can be mistaken for it as well.

If they were that knowledgeable they would have immidiately have addressed the size of the enclosure for a baby, even if well furnished in 80% of the cases it does not work unless you are an experienced keeper and the first sign will be food refusal.

They would also have never suggested force feeding every other day, that would never be done with a healthy animal that has never had food let alone one that would have health issues, again the toll of force feeding is great, we are talking about gastric juices capable of dissolving bones and fur.

After a while a snake that fails to thrive for whatever reason (husbandry or otherwise), will start becoming lethargic, dehydrated and reach the point of no return and eventually experiencing organ failure.

That animal should actually be euthanize at this stage.

I know it's hard to know who to trust but you can tell a lot on a vet experienced based on what they say, fail to say, address or fail to address and how they go about treatment.

Over the years I have seen a lot of vets making the wrong move based on traditional veterinary medicine and experience of treating dogs and cats, because snakes are usually a small percentage if their practice.

Keep that in mind if you get another animal and you are experiencing feeding issues

I appreciate what you are saying. So you are saying babies all eat better in small enclosures? We tried everything! She even tried to feed him a few times in his plastic carry box. Nothing worked.

Red Rings, I wish I could post pics, I look into how to do that.

Forced feeding was done to get some nourishment into him otherwise he would starve to death. He was. I gather they were hoping it would stimulate him and get him healthy enough to be interested in eating on his own again.
I understand it is not normal & stressful to the snake but how else would we get nutrients into him? Are you saying, if he won't eat to the point of starvation/illness, to euthanize him? Curious what you meant regarding the gastric juices. Interested. Plz explain.

Also, plz know that we did everything we felt was right. Everything was closely monitered. Cleaning, temperatures, humidity levels, water, food, enclosure, hides & so forth. Truly not sure what caused this. Perhaps per your statement, it started with the large enclosure & led to not eating... We will definitely have to do our research on that.

1

[Buttercup]

Agree ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ and sorry to say I'd be very surprised (but happy!) if this poor little snake pulls thru. That's just a awful LOT for his body to handle, including the well-
intentioned antibiotics. In all likelihood his health was compromised when you received him but no way to be sure...stress & sub-optimal conditions can cause any snake
to become ill that's been apparently (outwardly) healthy. Like any creature (ourselves included), exposure to pathogens that we can fight off if in relatively good health
can become life-threatening if we're simultaneously dealing with significant stress, etc.

In my experience of taking snakes to vets for medical care, the more things that are tried simultaneously, the less favorable the outcome; IMO some over-react & try too many things at once, with the very best of intentions & which may work fine with other animals, but seem to backfire with our fragile snakes. Also, most vets (even those with "snake keeping experience") generally rush to fix the problem with medical options (what they've trained in!) rather than husbandry issues (which take a lot of time to explain & which nets less financial remunerations for them). I really emphasize "TLC" with any new snake of any age.

Thank you. We are so surprised he's still alive. He's a fighter & if he survives all this may get a new name. Rocky?

I completely understand about simultaneously doing too many things. The vet didn't push anything on us, simply told us he is in critical condition & that they are very worried about him but that he stood a chance at recovery & gave us their recommendations. We are doing our best to let the poor baby rest and hopefully heal. I am afraid he may be beyond the point of no return but we felt we had to give him a shot at recovery.We did discuss euthanasia if he takes a turn for the worse.

We will feel terrible if the husbandry is the issue. We will never know, I guess. The vets felt ours was a good setup. One vet has ball pythons at home and she felt the large tank was fine as it had hides and proper warmth, etc. One poster did state our enclosure is too large for a baby. I guess we felt if he had an assortment of tight spaces to hide/stay warm, he would be happy/healthy... We kept our eyes on temps & humidity constantly. Mu daughter cleaned & changed his water consistently. The only issue was that he would not eat which is huge. My daughter researched online and watched a lot of videos and tried various techniques to entice him to eat. Nothing worked.

IF you have any more advice, plz share. We are very open to learning. Thx, again!

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[Stewart_Reptiles]

She even tried to feed him a few times in his plastic carry box. Nothing worked

.It's not a out feeding in a small container that is actually counterproductive with a non feeder it's about having them live in something very small to promote security which lack thereof is the number one trigger I hatchling food refusal, the link posted above explain what and how an non feeder can be back on track and realistically if you buy a well started hatchling and it does not eat within the first 3 to 4 weeks there is likely an issue husbandry wise (keep in mind that yes there are exception and some animal less succeptible to stress but if a healthy hatchling will not eat for you that's is way of saying something is not working for me.

I understand it is not normal & stressful to the snake but how else would we get nutrients into him? Are you saying, if he won't eat to the point of starvation/illness, to euthanize him? Curious what you meant regarding the gastric juices. Interested. Plz explain

What would typically done would be to assist and forcefeed is the assist is a fail and that would be done at a rate of once a week which would offer enough food to sustain the animal until he eats and or recovers.

The stomach acid in snakes are a lot stronger than the average animal and stimulating them at such a frequent rate with an animal that is weak can only do more harm than good sadly.

As far as what you have described fluid build up, the dark spot in the intestine, weakness etc there is a high chance the animal could already experience organ failure with the regimen of antibiotics, bath and force feed every other day it won't help.

[Buttercup]

Late December, looking good.

Today, edge of one of two red rings. Septicemia?

Dehydrated. 2 red spots are from 2 antibiotic injections.

Darkness speculated to be internal bleeding. Treating his GI with Carafate/sucralfate to hopefully stop this...

Fluid buildup. The hope is with treatment (anitbiotic, Carafate, NutriVed B complex & iron, warm soaks for hydration) his body will reabsorb this excess fluid.1