What's best viv or Tub? should i switch ?

[Albert420]

Hi All

I have recently found this post on feeding and behavior and wondered if you all could share your thoughts especially the part in bold.

All debates welcome.


The post :

Firstly, ball pythons do not like change. They will gladly adapt to their new surroundings over a period of time, but the happier that they were at their previous home could influence how long they take to settle in at the new one. It's important to learn from very early on that a ball pythons quality of life is not as influenced by a beautiful cage with lots of plants, vines, waterfalls and other unnecessary accessories as it is by security and temperature. A very good tip for less experienced keepers is to remember that Ball Pythons are generally happiest when they are snug and not openly exposed.

Our youngsters are kept in small flat tubs to simulate the cramped burrows and termite hills that they make their homes of in nature.......... A big spacious cage with hides is not the right setup for ball pythons and while some will tolerate this display cage environment, most will not thrive.?????....... These are incredibly shy snakes and feel threatened very easily. Closed up, cramped living quarters allows them the security they need and results in a more relaxed animal. Which is the first key to a feeding response.

Also note that the entire anthill or sub-terrainian sanctuary that they would normally utilize will not have a temperature gradient. It is for this reason that a cold cage with a 32 degree hot spot in the corner does not work as well as a tub with a consistent ambient temp in our experience. (????) True ?

Should i switch ? i really want whats best for my animals.
I appreciate everyone's input

[Absololol]

I would really appreciate the development on this point as well. We have ours in a large open bioactive enclosure with over 5 hides and nooks of various temps, along with live plants and logs, and she uses nearly all of the hides equally, and nestles around the plants to bask. She seems to love it. I don't understand why it would make for a worse environment - as long as the snake feels secure I don't see why it would make a difference. She isn't actively trying to escape, she doesn't seem stressed... If she wants to hide (as she does 90% of the day) then she has the option to, completely out of sight.

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[Lord Sorril]

Any environment that is created in a tub can also be recreated in a vivarium of ample size. To say that one is better than the other is reliant upon setup.

And for thermal gradients and ball pythons: I don't like them. If one side is too hot or one side too cold then that space cannot be utilized by the snake. If you have ideal ambient temp then the majority of the space (excluding hot spot) can be used at any given point in time.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

What is BEST is to provide proper husbandry allowing the animal to thrive, and that can be achieved in various way glass tank, cages or tubs, ultimately it is up to the keeper to see what work for them and their animals.

Some people fail as keepers whether it's with a tank a cage or a tub and some will succeed regardless of the enclosure.

SO it is about being open and do what works, and what might work one day might not work 2 or 3 years from now either which is why being in tune and understand your own animals is very important.

[NebulaJam]

I would really appreciate the development on this point as well. We have ours in a large open bioactive enclosure with over 5 hides and nooks of various temps, along with live plants and logs, and she uses nearly all of the hides equally, and nestles around the plants to bask. She seems to love it. I don't understand why it would make for a worse environment - as long as the snake feels secure I don't see why it would make a difference. She isn't actively trying to escape, she doesn't seem stressed... If she wants to hide (as she does 90% of the day) then she has the option to, completely out of sight.

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would love to see your set up!

[Tila]

Should you switch? I would ask you if you are struggling with any aspects of husbandry now...Also, if your snake is giving you reasons to consider that it is not happy with something.

As others have alluded to already, taking into account the environment the tub/viv exists in is important as well. Living in an environment that is at times excessively cold and dry (due to heating needs) means that for me, using tubs has created great improvements to the environments I can provide for my snakes. It was a case of "how hard do I want to try to fight nature?" Once I had the proper materials for my particular situation, maintaining good husbandry is easy.

Also, to the article's point of not providing a thermal gradient, I wonder how they define this term. Naturally there will be areas of any enclosure that are warmer and cooler, besides maybe in temperature controlled rooms. Is it possible to keep bps well in a climate controlled room, but I wonder if they would appreciate some slight variation so they could, for example, lay in a warmer area or cool off a bit...At least have a choice, not a huge unhealthy variation in temperature.

[Zincubus]

It’s all been covered all ready but I like to see my beautiful snakes so they’re all in wooden vivs with branches and caves / hiding places and fake foliage ..


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[Albert420]

Should you switch? I would ask you if you are struggling with any aspects of husbandry now...Also, if your snake is giving you reasons to consider that it is not happy with something.

As others have alluded to already, taking into account the environment the tub/viv exists in is important as well. Living in an environment that is at times excessively cold and dry (due to heating needs) means that for me, using tubs has created great improvements to the environments I can provide for my snakes. It was a case of "how hard do I want to try to fight nature?" Once I had the proper materials for my particular situation, maintaining good husbandry is easy.

Also, to the article's point of not providing a thermal gradient, I wonder how they define this term. Naturally there will be areas of any enclosure that are warmer and cooler, besides maybe in temperature controlled rooms. Is it possible to keep bps well in a climate controlled room, but I wonder if they would appreciate some slight variation so they could, for example, lay in a warmer area or cool off a bit...At least have a choice, not a huge unhealthy variation in temperature.

I do have a gradient from 27 -32 degrees and 27 - 30 for my spider morph (they do better with less heat,,,) my temps are on point and my thermostats dont have trouble keeping up and my humidity is 50 - 60, but i still do get the odd refusal of meals once a month. According to the breeder that wrote this post if your animal thrives it should never refuse a meal with that being said your temps are on point and the rodent temp is on point as well , still i do get refusals they hide they do anything a normal ball does but this got me thinking that they are not thriving???? His own words was if your animal is not food aggressive evrytime on the scheduled feeding day except for shedding etc ,, then its only eating to stay alive , where do you draw the line ? He also states to not point to individuals but rather than a group of balls from years of experience which i dont have and need more insight. .

[Albert420]

What is BEST is to provide proper husbandry allowing the animal to thrive, and that can be achieved in various way glass tank, cages or tubs, ultimately it is up to the keeper to see what work for them and their animals.

Some people fail as keepers whether it's with a tank a cage or a tub and some will succeed regardless of the enclosure.

SO it is about being open and do what works, and what might work one day might not work 2 or 3 years from now either which is why being in tune and understand your own animals is very important.

I agree with you, but like i said where do you draw the line how do you really tell if your animal is thriving or eating to stay alive ?

nvm the husbandry that's triple checked everyday.
Not much more i can do for them they have lots of security my temps and humidity is almost a constant. clean water every 2nd or 3rd day.

Anything more than that will stress my snakes out they also get left alone at-least 4 days a week 2 days after feeding and 2 more days just to be sure (my ocd).

[Albert420]

I should also state that my one ball python male is a very shy eater, i have to lay the rat in there and leave the room he will eat it 4 hours later , This also got me thinking maybe my snakes are not thriving .
Although all is on point?

I have been brainstorming this concept for two days now