Habitat sanity check before "Danger Noode" arrives.

[Treozen]

Hello all -

I've had my terrarium up and running now for about a week, gradually solving problems and issues, zeroing in on the ideal conditions. For those that have not read prior threads, there is no snake at present, this exercise is about getting "habitat operations" running like a well-oiled machine before we introduce the snake (which my wife has taken to calling, Danger Noodle). I have some stabilized conditions now and so I'd like to share them and make sure that we've achieved (nearly) the desired environment.

Temperatures - Daytime

1. Ambient temperatures are between 79 - 81 degrees, I have the thermostat set at 82, and the hab will sometimes get there, but it generally tops out at 80. Structures are a little higher at 84 (logs and such).
2. Surface temperatures (read with no substrate in the way) in the "Warm Zone" vary between 85 - 95 degrees, temp controlled by thermostat and checked with IR laser thermometer. Average is 90 degrees but inside warm hide surface gets to 94 - 95 degrees
3. Cool side surface temp tends to be 73 - 74 degrees

Temperatures - Night time

1. Ambient ROOM temperature drops to 63 degrees. This is unavoidable.
2. Ambient habitat temperature drops to 71 - 72 degrees
3. Surface temps remain consistent with day-time readings at 85 - 95 degrees
4. Ambient temps inside the "warm" hide remain at 88 degrees

Humidity

1. Average of 50%. All three sensors are in the bottom third of the habitat, left, middle and back. Highest reading is 65% with a low of 45% - it seems to vary considerably between hydrometers depending on placement. ROOM humidity is around 25% - its a nightmare this time of year, then add a wood stove to top it off. Attaining a 25-point differential is somewhat of an achievement, but I'd prefer to see this reading a consistent 60%, so we're still working on it.
2. We have tired several solutions, and have more possibilities to try, but for right now, I'd say humidity is being maintained at 48 - 50%

So, that's what we have managed so far. Given the type of enclosure (Exoterra 36 X 18 x 24) its been a challenge. But we used various techniques, including space-age blankets and a quilted lid to get "into the zone" Still not 100% there, but I feel like its close.

On the subject of sizes - I wanted a female because they are larger (generally) and I seem to have gotten the idea that males food-strike more often. BUT...wondering if 36 X 18 will provide a female with enough space?

Thanks,
Allan.

[Mr. Misha]

Hi Alan,

It's pretty exciting to get your first BP! Picking the first one out is definitely a lot of fun!

Also, I didn't read your other threads so might some repetitive questions. In regards to your day time temps, your surface temps of 94-95 are definitely hot. I'd turn them down to 88-90. Also how are heating the enclosure and are you using thermostats?

Your night time temps are too low. Should try to get them up to about 76-78. If you're having a hard time keeping the temps up, try putting styrofoam on the back and the sides of the enclosure or maybe get a space heater for that specific room.

The truth about glass enclosures is that they don't keep heat or humidity well at all. My suggestion is that if you have a bit of cash to spend and you're going to be in this hobby, invest in a Animal Plastic AP10 enclosure which should be plent for a female BP and outfit it with a Radient Heat Panel. The setup becomes self sufficient and doesn't need to be check up on a daily basis once everything is dialed in. I would ballpark that the terrarium, RHP and a proportional thermostat will run you about $500 bucks but worth it.

[Lord Sorril]

I personally would not let any ambient temps in any enclosure fall below 78F. I would not let hot spot surface temperature exceed 92F. Surface temperature cannot substitute for ambient. Given that you are fighting a night time temperature of 63F ambient--that is quite a battle.

Currently with an ambient of 71F inside the enclosure the snake would be breathing 'cold' air every night which it will either adapt or succumb to over time. In your case since you are using a ExoTerra 36x18x24 with a female ball python I would not bother with a gradient as the snake gets larger the enclosure gets tighter: I would target ideal conditions instead. I would use two ceramic heat emitters same wattage on the top symmetrically placed and linked to a proportional thermostat. The thermostat would be configured so that the heaters prevent any point in the enclosure from falling below 78F. If you do this: I would put a deep heavy water bowl beneath each heat emitter to release humidity and prevent the setup from turning into a desert. The difference in temps between the interior/exterior of the habitat will most likely result in condensation and it would be worth insulating the exterior walls to limit this.

As for size of enclosure everyone has their own opinion, by mine: 36x18x24 (depending upon decoration) will be large enough for a small adult female, cozy for a medium-size adult female (assuming you use vertical space), and with just water bowls, climbing stick, and no decoration it may/may not be suitable for larger females (x=diameter vs. length).

[Treozen]

Hi Alan,

It's pretty exciting to get your first BP! Picking the first one out is definitely a lot of fun!

Yes, I'll admit to being excited, but I've cautioned everyone (kids and my wife) that actually getting a BP is conditioned on making the environment work, so we're not celebrating yet.

In regards to your day time temps, your surface temps of 94-95 are definitely hot. I'd turn them down to 88-90. Also how are heating the enclosure and are you using thermostats?

Its a troubling aspect - the thing is, if I try control for the small area of 94-95 degrees, the rest of the surface seems to drop off and end up too low. In trying to "split the difference" I hoped that 94-95 in the hottest part of the enclosure might be ok, if it gets me an otherwise reasonable 91 - 85 degrees elsewhere in the "warm" side. Reptiles.com suggests a basking temp of 95 - 105, Snakes for Pets.com suggests 90-95 degrees and Urban reptiles.com states 89-97 degrees ....but there are as many sources that say 90 degrees is the top end....its hard to know what is correct. Heating is via UTH and CHE (both required) and both thermostatically controlled.

Your night time temps are too low. Should try to get them up to about 76-78. If you're having a hard time keeping the temps up, try putting styrofoam on the back and the sides of the enclosure or maybe get a space heater for that specific room.

We've used all manner of devices and inventions to keep the heat, including foam, NASA space blankets (emergency heat retention blankets) and a quilted insulated terrarium blanket (our own design) for the top, sides and back. They all worked, but 71 - 72 degrees is the best that can be achieved overnight until the season turns - probably April. Space heater is not an option, and wouldn't work in any case (no way to enclose the space). Lihs.com indicates that "A slight drop at night of 5° -10° F is quite acceptable" from a stated 75 - 82 degree ambient starting point, and Reptifiles.com states that 72 degrees as acceptable overnight, claiming "Temperatures can typically drop to room temperature at night without negative effects, and may actually be more beneficial for the snake’s long-term health" - but again, only two sources. The ambient temperature inside the hide remains 88 overnight, but the rest of the enclosure is 72. If we must get to 76-78 ambient in the entire habitat overnight, this may be a deal-killer, because I'm not sure achievable....though I'm not completely out of ideas yet.

I personally would not let any ambient temps in any enclosure fall below 78F. I would not let hot spot surface temperature exceed 92F. Surface temperature cannot substitute for ambient. Given that you are fighting a night time temperature of 63F ambient--that is quite a battle.

It is indeed.

As for size of enclosure everyone has their own opinion, by mine: 36x18x24 (depending upon decoration) will be large enough for a small adult female, cozy for a medium-size adult female (assuming you use vertical space), and with just water bowls, climbing stick, and no decoration it may/may not be suitable for larger females (x=diameter vs. length).

Hmm, sort of what I was thinking. May have to look at a male......which for some reason, bothers me, lol.


I have a few last ideas to correct the temps per the advice. One is to replace the top of the Exo-Terra tank. If you're unfamiliar, its a screen top with plastic cross-brace, but the cross brace only allows for a 5.5 inch dome - the plastic brace would get melted if you went larger. This limits a few things. First, it limits the wattage of CHE to 100W, I cant find a 5.5 dome that will support a 150W CHE. Second, the 5.5 inch dome does not allow the heat to "fill" the tank, focusing it instead on a much narrower area - and CHEs have a narrow field to begin with, and third, the dome is taller than the standard "clamp lamp" which moves the CHE even further away, reducing the overall effectiveness. A 150W CHE is a better fit for a 24" deep tank (according to heat maps from Exo-terra), but is unsupportable at present. If, however, I replaced the lid with one I can can fabricate, I can make room for a 8.5" lamp while at the same time eliminating most of the screen, which may even improve humidity retention (we have the existing screen covered).

The second idea is that we could run the baseboard heater - I forget its even there, my wife hit it with the vacuum this morning and we were like....."oh yea I guess there's that thing".... We could set the baseboard heater to come on when the room gets to say 68, which is sufficient for the habitat to reach 78. The issue there though is that baseboards are very expensive to run, and in the setup of the room, I'm not convinced it would actually do any good, but we'll give it a go.

At some point though, may have to decide that the environment is just not snake-worthy, and go back to mammals ;-)

[Craiga 01453]

Keep in mind many of the care sheets you're referencing are likely outdated. Most of the care sheets floating around the internet are.

You don't want your temps dropping below 75, aiming for 78-80 would be preferred.

And you definitely don't want temps that high. I never let mine hit 90, nevermind 95+. I aim for a hot spot off 88.

[Bumblebee my snake]

if you are having a hard time with night temps, a ceramic heat lamps are a good choice. i would recommend only leaving it on at night, because it may get a little to hot during the day

[Ranulf]

I run a space heater on a plug-in thermostat. Only thing that works for me.

[Treozen]

So, quick update:

1 - Replaced the top of the Exo Terra tank, which then allowed an 8.5" dome, which then allowed a 150W CHE.
2 - Turned on baseboard heat so that the room has some level of higher ambient heat (though it is a hard space to heat well from a single source, other than the wood stove)

Results: The habitat is maintaining temps of 82 degrees without issue (falls to 80, then turns on, back off at 82, usually hits 82.4) Its currently 68 degrees in the room, so we're getting a 14 degree differential now and the habitat is not struggling to get to 82, does so with ease. SO , I think we have temperature figured out. The only remaining issue is that the shady parts of the "cool" side are 73 - 74 degrees - but anywhere the light touches (Lion king) is upwards of 85 degrees surface and the ambient as measured in the middle of the tank, under shade, is 82.

Humidity - well now, still working on that, but I have an idea. I found a small wooden-looking ball that is a scented oil humidifier. Without scented oils obviously, it sends a wisp of most air up about a foot and seems able to get the tank to 65 - 70% after some minutes. So I ordered a humidity controller and we'll see. I actually found three different small humidifiers, so I'll try them all - different configurations and water reservoirs.

And you definitely don't want temps that high. I never let mine hit 90, nevermind 95+. I aim for a hot spot off 88.

I calibrated the hot spot again and I am now reading 90 in most areas with that particular small spot at 92 -93.