Getting a Kingsnake Eating

[Werewolves]

I've read the usual tips since this is a common snake problem, but I wanted to describe my situation and see if anyone has specific advice. I know it hasn’t been long enough to worry and she is by no means underweight, but my other four snakes have all been easy to feed including one that switched to f/t without a hassle, so this is really my first frustrating challenge (besides the MBK baby that suddenly died very shortly after I got her... apparently I just have bad luck with kingsnakes).

I got a 4.5yo female california kingsnake in September, whose breeder fed live out of convenience. He was confident she would also take f/t and I wasn’t too concerned since she is a kingsnake, after all. Once she had settled in (and shed), I started offering f/t once a week. She ate once, on October 5th, but apparently it was a fluke because I’ve had trouble getting any feeding response out of her otherwise. I’ve been primarily drop feeding because she gets skittish if she sees me standing there - she struck off the tongs once, but then got spooked by me closing the lid of the tub and abandoned it. Scenting mice with freshly used bedding and leaving them overnight didn't work. I didn't try braining because I know from experience that I can't do it right. I figured it was my mistake for immediately trying to switch to f/t instead of getting her comfortable accepting live from me first, so I picked up a live mouse this weekend. But again no luck… she stuck her head out of the hide and approached the mouse, tongue flicking, but never struck and eventually stared at me for a minute before going back into her hide.

I’ve kept the tub basic; aspen substrate with a hide on each side and some simple wood and leaves in the middle. The cool side is 74 and the warm side is 87 with a maximum hotspot of 90. The sides except for the front are either blacked out or against a wall, and it’s in a closet that stays closed so there’s no traffic to disturb her. She’s quite alert when I catch her outside of her hides, she’s drinking water, and when she defecated after her one meal it seemed normal. I haven’t handled her at all since mid-September.

I’m perfectly happy to take care of the rejected mouse, so I suppose I should just keep offering that once every week or maybe every two weeks and hope she eventually gives in. I was planning for quarantine to be over on December 1st and move the new snakes into their permanent cages at that point, which are bigger than the quarantine tubs and have more cluttered decor and enrichment. Since she’s proven clean of mites and doesn’t have any other symptoms of illness by now, can I go ahead and put her in the permanent cage when the time’s up even if she hasn’t eaten, in case a better environment makes her more willing to eat (or because she may simply be going off food for the winter so I gotta wait it out)?

[Bogertophis]

While this is a common snake problem, it's NOT a common problem for calif. king snakes. (I've raised, kept, & bred them in the past for a number of years.)

First, I'm sorry that you lost a hatchling MBK- it probably had nothing to do with you, or with the current problem with this snake. Hatchlings may have unknown defects
that make them more of a risk to purchase compared to older, more established snakes...that's one reason they cost less, & also, because the breeder has fewer meals &
less time "invested" in them.

Are you housing this Calif. king the same way the breeder did? (cage size etc) Have you asked? Was this snake handled much by the breeder? (it doesn't sound like it)

It's unusual for a breeder to sell a 4.5 year old snake...what reason was given? Was she ever bred? Call me a skeptic, but I'm wondering if she was sold because the seller
had undisclosed health issues with this snake.

Did the breeder brumate this snake for breeding in the past? ***Is it possible she got chilled before or after you got her, so now she expects to be brumated?***

She sounds like she was rarely handled...have you tried fresh-killed? (safer than live, and smells the same as live) She may have less confidence because she's in a new
place & this would be more familiar to her. It's still odd for a cal king not to eat though.

Too bad you didn't have her stool checked, just in case something's going on that treatment would fix.

Any abnormal swellings on her body (even slight ones)?

What you're doing doesn't seem to be working, so unless my questions turned up something relevant, I don't think putting her in a larger cage would help or hurt, UN-
LESS (?) she is just really freaked out by her change of home, that may set her back further. No way to know for sure until you try it. The older a snake is, the more
stressful a new home is...but this is still very strange for a Cal king, IMO. All the ones I've known were chow-hounds.

[Cheesenugget]

I got mine as an adult as well, of unknown age. I am guessing she is older based on how dull her scales are.

While mine will eat with no problems even during a shed, around this time of year, Nibbler begins to slow down. She will take the mouse if I put it in front of her face. Otherwise, she is not active in her enclosure and spends the majority of her time sleeping. As we progress into winter, her behavior changes into where she don't want to be bothered. I can poke her with a mouse all day and she would 'shrug' it off and sometimes let out a little hiss.

So to answer your questions, imo, go ahead and switch her over to her new enclosure. However, focus more on adding hides than decor because she may just want to be left alone, at least, for the first 2 weeks and see how active she is. Unlike bp, if your snake is as big as mine (about 4.5 feet), then that extra floor space will eventually be used. Offer feeding every other week. After she settles down in her new cage, watch for any signs of her flicking her tongue a lot when you open the cage door, moving around a lot especially dusk or dawn, etc.

I would keep offering f/t at least 2 more times before trying live. Make sure to warm it up properly. If it won't take it from you, leave it on a plate and let her decide.

[EL-Ziggy]

Both my kings would slow down drastically on feedings during the winter. My male wouldn't eat from Nov-March. I'd usually have to offer a live prey item to break his fasts. The female wouldn't totally go off feed but she'd only eat sporadically in the winter. If your girl was eating live exclusively before you got her I'd probably stick with that for the first few attempts and I'd offer food biweekly. If she refuses more than 3 times I'd start offering food once a month until she decides to eat again. You can also try offering an asf or chick and see if that entices her.

[Werewolves]

Are you housing this Calif. king the same way the breeder did? (cage size etc) Have you asked? Was this snake handled much by the breeder? (it doesn't sound like it)

It's unusual for a breeder to sell a 4.5 year old snake...what reason was given? Was she ever bred? Call me a skeptic, but I'm wondering if she was sold because the seller
had undisclosed health issues with this snake.

Did the breeder brumate this snake for breeding in the past? ***Is it possible she got chilled before or after you got her, so now she expects to be brumated?***

I'm not sure what caging she was kept in before - I bought her at an expo and he had given me his business card, so I looked for it a couple weeks ago in order to ask that exact question. But unfortunately I seem to have lost it. I had assumed she was breeding stock that he decided not to use any more, but I definitely should have asked for more details to confirm that and figure out the reason why - I only asked whether she was eating consistently and what she was being fed on. I knew to interrogate a seller more in theory, just failed in practice (social anxiety issues around crowds, I'm trying to work on that by going to expos and holding more conversations with vendors).

Over these past couple of weeks, I’ve definitely seen this as a learning experience - gotta force myself to talk more, and DON’T lose business cards.

She sounds like she was rarely handled...have you tried fresh-killed?

I haven't, though I could try it with the currently-live mouse I have running around in a spare tub.

Too bad you didn't have her stool checked, just in case something's going on that treatment would fix.

Yep, I've kicked myself for not doing that. I guess it's another part of the learning experience.

Any abnormal swellings on her body (even slight ones)?

I examined her whole length at the expo and again when I weighed her upon coming home, and didn't notice anything. I haven't done another physical check like that since I didn't want to stress her out more with handling, but I can do that and see if anything has changed.

[Werewolves]

I got mine as an adult as well, of unknown age. I am guessing she is older based on how dull her scales are.

While mine will eat with no problems even during a shed, around this time of year, Nibbler begins to slow down. She will take the mouse if I put it in front of her face. Otherwise, she is not active in her enclosure and spends the majority of her time sleeping. As we progress into winter, her behavior changes into where she don't want to be bothered. I can poke her with a mouse all day and she would 'shrug' it off and sometimes let out a little hiss.

So to answer your questions, imo, go ahead and switch her over to her new enclosure. However, focus more on adding hides than decor because she may just want to be left alone, at least, for the first 2 weeks and see how active she is. Unlike bp, if your snake is as big as mine (about 4.5 feet), then that extra floor space will eventually be used. Offer feeding every other week. After she settles down in her new cage, watch for any signs of her flicking her tongue a lot when you open the cage door, moving around a lot especially dusk or dawn, etc.

I would keep offering f/t at least 2 more times before trying live. Make sure to warm it up properly. If it won't take it from you, leave it on a plate and let her decide.

Both my kings would slow down drastically on feedings during the winter. My male wouldn't eat from Nov-March. I'd usually have to offer a live prey item to break his fasts. The female wouldn't totally go off feed but she'd only eat sporadically in the winter. If your girl was eating live exclusively before you got her I'd probably stick with that for the first few attempts and I'd offer food biweekly. If she refuses more than 3 times I'd start offering food once a month until she decides to eat again. You can also try offering an asf or chick and see if that entices her.

I really hope it is simply just the time of year like that. I'll offer every other week for now and try to be patient. She is in fact a bit over 4ft and is fairly active in her 36x18in quarantine tub, so I don't doubt that she'd make full use of her 48x24 permanent cage.

[Bogertophis]

It takes willpower, planning & focus to ask all the right questions while at an expo... It's probably nothing serious, & you don't need to repeat her "physical", but
if you see her out & about, just try to be observant.

It's probably the combination of time of year (expecting to brumate) & the new surroundings that have her freaked out a little. Bear in mind that both temperatures
and the amount of daylight can tip off snakes to brumate. You might try leaving a "daylight" bulb on near her (same room) to may the days seem longer, but if she's
been brumated & bred in the past, she may be hard to fool. If she continues refusing food & is kept at warm temperatures, it might be better to just 'go with the flow'
so she doesn't lose too much weight, & gradually reduce her cage temperatures, reduce the light (cover her cage) & let her sleep a couple months. You didn't mention,
but I assume she isn't skinny? Be sure she has fresh water at all times. When I lived in the desert, I found that I had a bedroom closet on an "outside" wall that was
cool enough (near the floor) to brumate snakes...it was about 55* (under 60*) for long enough to serve the purpose, especially since I only brumated a few at most.

Just a thought: Her activity might just be that she's too warm & is looking for a cooler place to brumate.

[Werewolves]

It takes willpower, planning & focus to ask all the right questions while at an expo... It's probably nothing serious, & you don't need to repeat her "physical", but
if you see her out & about, just try to be observant.

It's probably the combination of time of year (expecting to brumate) & the new surroundings that have her freaked out a little. Bear in mind that both temperatures
and the amount of daylight can tip off snakes to brumate. You might try leaving a "daylight" bulb on near her (same room) to may the days seem longer, but if she's
been brumated & bred in the past, she may be hard to fool. If she continues refusing food & is kept at warm temperatures, it might be better to just 'go with the flow'
so she doesn't lose too much weight, & gradually reduce her cage temperatures, reduce the light (cover her cage) & let her sleep a couple months. You didn't mention,
but I assume she isn't skinny? Be sure she has fresh water at all times. When I lived in the desert, I found that I had a bedroom closet on an "outside" wall that was
cool enough (near the floor) to brumate snakes...it was about 55* (under 60*) for long enough to serve the purpose, especially since I only brumated a few at most.

Just a thought: Her activity might just be that she's too warm & is looking for a cooler place to brumate.

Thank you for that info! I knew very little about brumation in captivity. I'm pretty positive that she's been using her cool side hide much more than the warm side and burrowing on the cool side too, so that could be very likely. I may not be able to get the temp quite that low, but if it looks to be the direction she's going then I can easily reduce the light and lower the warm side to hopefully make her a bit more comfortable. I'll have to test a closet once winter sets in a bit more around here.

You're right, she's not skinny at all. That's largely why I wasn't too worried yet - she doesn't look like she's missed any meals!

[Bogertophis]

Thank you for that info! I knew very little about brumation in captivity. I'm pretty positive that she's been using her cool side hide much more than the warm side and burrowing on the cool side too, so that could be very likely. I may not be able to get the temp quite that low, but if it looks to be the direction she's going then I can easily reduce the light and lower the warm side to hopefully make her a bit more comfortable. I'll have to test a closet once winter sets in a bit more around here.

You're right, she's not skinny at all. That's largely why I wasn't too worried yet - she doesn't look like she's missed any meals!

The main thing with brumation is being sure there is no food in their digestive tract, & from what you've said, she's pretty empty. Then you lower their cage temperatures over about 2 weeks (you'd be turning the heat down & then finally off) while keeping them in darker "shorter days". Snakes get less active the cooler they are: 60* is a rough cut-off- they can move around some at 60*. When I brumated snakes my goal was above 50* & below 60*, that was cool enough for their fertility & rest. The only thing is, that brumation also shuts down their immune system, so if a snake isn't healthy you never want to brumate them. Obviously, you cannot always tell, so what I'm saying is that there is also some risk involved...but there is also risk if your snake is starving itself, so this will have to be your decision to make, based on your best guess.

[Bogertophis]

If you choose to go with brumation, bear in mind that you don't have to do it all thru the winter, if you have her enclosure well set up to fool her when she comes
out...preferably in a room that's not too cool & with enough light (to simulate the longer days of spring). What I'm saying is that since (or if) she is determined that
it's time to fast & brumate, you could just "go with the flow"....let her sleep for a month or so -she won't be counting the days -before you gradually raise the
cage temperatures & gradually (over 2 weeks or so) increase the light to bring her out of her brumation. She should be wanting to eat then, as long as she doesn't
get wind of the trick you've played on her she won't know it's still winter, & she'll probably eat for you. A shorter brumation means less risk with her immune system
shut down, just in case there's a hint of anything brewing. (I know you just got this snake.)