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  1. #11
    BPnet Senior Member CloudtheBoa's Avatar
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    Back in the Game

    Quote Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal View Post
    Cute babies!

    I don't think thsoe 3 are technically hooded rats. The way it was explained to me by my mentor, hooded rats have to have the hood and a solid stripe from the hood to the base of the tail without break in the color down its back. Anything that has breaks or lacks the stripe is technically variegated (or possibly DWS I think).

    AFRMA describes them that way too:
    http://www.afrma.org/ratmkd.htm

    To be honest though, I prefer the variegated look over hooded, so what you've got is my preference in pattern between the 2.
    And the terminology is probably not super important unless you show rats, but I think it's interesting to learn it and wanted to share.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I only knew of the hooded term so that’s what I used. I am very new and have no feedback from the breeder, so I really have no idea what is what. I’m less claiming them as being any certain breed/coat/pattern and more just trying to describe what I see at this point.

    There are a total of 5 of the variegated/DWS, 2 in one litter and 3 in another. Perhaps if I have space in the future I may work on some selective breeding. Not necessarily for hoodeds specifically, either.


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    Last edited by CloudtheBoa; 09-26-2019 at 02:45 AM.
    8.3 Boa imperator ('15 sunglow "Nymeria," '11 normal "Cloud," '16 anery motley "Crona," '10 ghost "Howl," '08 jungle "Dominika," '22 RC pastel hypo jungle "Aleister," '22 pastel normal "Gengar," '22 orangasm hypo "Daemon," '22 poss jungle "Jinzo," '22 poss jungle "Calcifer," '22 motley "Guin")
    1.4 Boa imperator; unnamed '22 hbs
    3.3 Plains garter snakes
    1.2 checkered garter snakes (unnamed)

    ~RIP~
    2.2 Brazilian rainbow boa ('15 Picasso stripe BRBs "Guin" and "Morzan, and '15 hypo "Homura", '14 normal "Sanji")
    1.0 garter snake ('13 albino checkered "Draco")
    1.0 eastern garter ('13 "Demigod)
    0.0.1 ball python ('06 "Bud")

  2. #12
    BPnet Veteran pretends2bnormal's Avatar
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    Re: Back in the Game

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa View Post
    I only knew of the hooded term so that’s what I used. I am very new and have no feedback from the breeder, so I really have no idea what is what. I’m less claiming them as being any certain breed/coat/pattern and more just trying to describe what I see at this point.

    There are a total of 5 of the variegated/DWS, 2 in one litter and 3 in another. Perhaps if I have space in the future I may work on some selective breeding. Not necessarily for hoodeds specifically, either.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    No worries! It's not really a big deal what you call them in most situations, so it's all good.

    I'd probably stick to just variegated to describe them since DWS (stands for dominant white spotting) in most lines have megacolon (basically, they don't digest right and the abdomen swells until they're super bloated and die, generally by a few weeks old as they start eating solids) and tends to have much less coloring on the head than yours. Depending who is talking, some people get unnecessarily bent out of shape about DWS. (Sometimes on the same level as people talking about spider BP wobble)

    I've got a line where the great great grandparent was a DWS from a line that hadn't even shown megacolon (it's a gene that is commonly linked with the visual trait, so most lines carry the hidden gene that causes the medical issue. Some lines do not, but the only way to know is to breed it and see if any have it) and while nothing popped up in looking like DWS for my mentor, I've gotten a few now, none with megacolon.

    Pics for reference sake. A few variegated I bred earlier





    And one of mine that came out with the DWS appearance (I think there is a lower white version, but I dont know how to ID that one, this is the "classic" appearance)


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    Last edited by pretends2bnormal; 09-26-2019 at 09:30 AM.

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  4. #13
    BPnet Senior Member CloudtheBoa's Avatar
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    Re: Back in the Game

    Quote Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal View Post
    No worries! It's not really a big deal what you call them in most situations, so it's all good.

    I'd probably stick to just variegated to describe them since DWS (stands for dominant white spotting) in most lines have megacolon (basically, they don't digest right and the abdomen swells until they're super bloated and die, generally by a few weeks old as they start eating solids) and tends to have much less coloring on the head than yours. Depending who is talking, some people get unnecessarily bent out of shape about DWS. (Sometimes on the same level as people talking about spider BP wobble)

    I've got a line where the great great grandparent was a DWS from a line that hadn't even shown megacolon (it's a gene that is commonly linked with the visual trait, so most lines carry the hidden gene that causes the medical issue. Some lines do not, but the only way to know is to breed it and see if any have it) and while nothing popped up in looking like DWS for my mentor, I've gotten a few now, none with megacolon.

    Pics for reference sake. A few variegated I bred earlier





    And one of mine that came out with the DWS appearance (I think there is a lower white version, but I dont know how to ID that one, this is the "classic" appearance)


    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Hopefully as these ones develop I’ll be able to get further help.

    Considering the father was silvermane/D’argent, a decent portion of the dark babies should be as well. I read you can’t tell for awhile until they age a bit?

    I’m thinking maybe the paler kinda lavender-ish ones are regular martens, if the breeder did tell me they were marten.

    It’s really all just guesswork rn. Haha


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    8.3 Boa imperator ('15 sunglow "Nymeria," '11 normal "Cloud," '16 anery motley "Crona," '10 ghost "Howl," '08 jungle "Dominika," '22 RC pastel hypo jungle "Aleister," '22 pastel normal "Gengar," '22 orangasm hypo "Daemon," '22 poss jungle "Jinzo," '22 poss jungle "Calcifer," '22 motley "Guin")
    1.4 Boa imperator; unnamed '22 hbs
    3.3 Plains garter snakes
    1.2 checkered garter snakes (unnamed)

    ~RIP~
    2.2 Brazilian rainbow boa ('15 Picasso stripe BRBs "Guin" and "Morzan, and '15 hypo "Homura", '14 normal "Sanji")
    1.0 garter snake ('13 albino checkered "Draco")
    1.0 eastern garter ('13 "Demigod)
    0.0.1 ball python ('06 "Bud")

  5. #14
    BPnet Veteran pretends2bnormal's Avatar
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    Re: Back in the Game

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa View Post
    Hopefully as these ones develop I’ll be able to get further help.

    Considering the father was silvermane/D’argent, a decent portion of the dark babies should be as well. I read you can’t tell for awhile until they age a bit?

    I’m thinking maybe the paler kinda lavender-ish ones are regular martens, if the breeder did tell me they were marten.

    It’s really all just guesswork rn. Haha


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I usually have fairly dark martens as babies, the usually look like the black self rats at that age, the markings show with the fur and then they lighten with age. Most of my lighter marked ones tend to be blue or mink, or marble if that's one of the parents.

    A few of my martens over time:




    And a bit older





    I'm not very familiar with silvermane since I don't have it, but I think that's how it works as far as lightening goes; that it doesn't start until they're at least a few weeks old. Though I think it can be on any coat color, so you should have it on anything not just dark ones. I'm not sure if it is recessive or not, so depending on that you may get no visuals. (I.e. if recessive and mom is not a carrier) - I think I heard it talked about as recessive, but I really don't know for sure.

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  6. #15
    BPnet Senior Member CloudtheBoa's Avatar
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    Back in the Game

    Quote Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal View Post
    I usually have fairly dark martens as babies, the usually look like the black self rats at that age, the markings show with the fur and then they lighten with age. Most of my lighter marked ones tend to be blue or mink, or marble if that's one of the parents.

    A few of my martens over time:




    And a bit older





    I'm not very familiar with silvermane since I don't have it, but I think that's how it works as far as lightening goes; that it doesn't start until they're at least a few weeks old. Though I think it can be on any coat color, so you should have it on anything not just dark ones. I'm not sure if it is recessive or not, so depending on that you may get no visuals. (I.e. if recessive and mom is not a carrier) - I think I heard it talked about as recessive, but I really don't know for sure.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I believe silvermane is dominant, at least that’s what this link (https://www.onceuponamischief.com/variety-silvermane) says, but it is unknown.

    I believe the breeder said 2 were likely silvermane, so if it’s recessive then I know those are carriers. If they show up in all litters, then I believe it’s safe to assume it is dominant? I’m fairly sure the rex/hairless girl (whichever she happens to be) has no chance of being silvermane.

    Do you know much about the hairless and rex varieties? I was initially told by someone that hairless were selectively bred rexes, but some reading and videos seem to imply they’re separate genes? I’m just wondering what sort of results I’d get breeding my rex girl to a hairless male (I haven’t seen him yet and won’t get him until the new rack is built).


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    Last edited by CloudtheBoa; 09-26-2019 at 11:58 AM.
    8.3 Boa imperator ('15 sunglow "Nymeria," '11 normal "Cloud," '16 anery motley "Crona," '10 ghost "Howl," '08 jungle "Dominika," '22 RC pastel hypo jungle "Aleister," '22 pastel normal "Gengar," '22 orangasm hypo "Daemon," '22 poss jungle "Jinzo," '22 poss jungle "Calcifer," '22 motley "Guin")
    1.4 Boa imperator; unnamed '22 hbs
    3.3 Plains garter snakes
    1.2 checkered garter snakes (unnamed)

    ~RIP~
    2.2 Brazilian rainbow boa ('15 Picasso stripe BRBs "Guin" and "Morzan, and '15 hypo "Homura", '14 normal "Sanji")
    1.0 garter snake ('13 albino checkered "Draco")
    1.0 eastern garter ('13 "Demigod)
    0.0.1 ball python ('06 "Bud")

  7. #16
    BPnet Veteran pretends2bnormal's Avatar
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    Re: Back in the Game

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa View Post
    I believe silvermane is dominant, at least that’s what this link (https://www.onceuponamischief.com/variety-silvermane) says, but it is unknown.

    I believe the breeder said 2 were likely silvermane, so if it’s recessive then I know those are carriers. If they show up in all litters, then I believe it’s safe to assume it is dominant? I’m fairly sure the rex/hairless girl (whichever she happens to be) has no chance of being silvermane.

    Do you know much about the hairless and rex varieties? I was initially told by someone that hairless were selectively bred rexes, but some reading and videos seem to imply they’re separate genes? I’m just wondering what sort of results I’d get breeding my rex girl to a hairless male (I haven’t seen him yet and won’t get him until the new rack is built).


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    Well, don't quote me on silvermane, lol. I definitely don't know. Might be mixing it up with roan which I also don't have, haha.

    I have rex and I can 100% confirm that the "hairless is a selective bred rex" is complete garbage. They're entirely separate genes. Rex is a dominant with a visual homozygous form called drex or double rex, it varies in appearance a bit but can appear similar to hairless. Hairless is a recessive gene where homozygous form is reliably lacking most if not all hair.
    I don't have hairless, but I think there is a way to tell via whiskers. I'm not too sure though. I have only hit 1 I think is drex and she's still pretty young.

    Rex to hairless will give you 50% rex rats, 50% standard, 100% carriers for hairless. Breeding a rex carrier back to the hairless would give you on average 25% rex (carriers for hairless), 25% rex + hairless, 25% hairless, and 25% standard that are carriers for hairless.

    It gets messy and hard to differentiate the genes further on (i.e. rex hairless vs just hairless, or drex hairless even), so I'd personally avoid making that pairing unless you have no choice or don't actually care what the turnout is (i.e. 100% feeders for the babies). It could be very difficult down the line to determine which babies have what if you did try to sell/advertise pets or to other breeders searching for specific genetics. (Someone who knows more obvious identifiers for hairless vs rex may not have that issue, but that's a trick I don't have lol)

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    Last edited by pretends2bnormal; 09-26-2019 at 12:09 PM.

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  9. #17
    BPnet Senior Member CloudtheBoa's Avatar
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    Re: Back in the Game

    Quote Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal View Post
    Well, don't quote me on silvermane, lol. I definitely don't know. Might be mixing it up with roan which I also don't have, haha.

    I have rex and I can 100% confirm that the "hairless is a selective bred rex" is complete garbage. They're entirely separate genes. Rex is a dominant with a visual homozygous form called drex or double rex, it varies in appearance a bit but can appear similar to hairless. Hairless is a recessive gene where homozygous form is reliably lacking most if not all hair.
    I don't have hairless, but I think there is a way to tell via whiskers. I'm not too sure though. I have only hit 1 I think is drex and she's still pretty young.

    Rex to hairless will give you 50% rex rats, 50% standard, 100% carriers for hairless. Breeding a rex carrier back to the hairless would give you on average 25% rex (carriers for hairless), 25% rex + hairless, 25% hairless, and 25% standard that are carriers for hairless.

    It gets messy and hard to differentiate the genes further on (i.e. rex hairless vs just hairless, or drex hairless even), so I'd personally avoid making that pairing unless you have no choice or don't actually care what the turnout is (i.e. 100% feeders for the babies). It could be very difficult down the line to determine which babies have what if you did try to sell/advertise pets or to other breeders searching for specific genetics. (Someone who knows more obvious identifiers for hairless vs rex may not have that issue, but that's a trick I don't have lol)

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Ok thanks. I will probably breed him to the rex just to see the results, with no plans to sell. I’ll save the pet hairless for the other, non-rex girls. For now I’m just building up my freezer so no pet sales yet.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    8.3 Boa imperator ('15 sunglow "Nymeria," '11 normal "Cloud," '16 anery motley "Crona," '10 ghost "Howl," '08 jungle "Dominika," '22 RC pastel hypo jungle "Aleister," '22 pastel normal "Gengar," '22 orangasm hypo "Daemon," '22 poss jungle "Jinzo," '22 poss jungle "Calcifer," '22 motley "Guin")
    1.4 Boa imperator; unnamed '22 hbs
    3.3 Plains garter snakes
    1.2 checkered garter snakes (unnamed)

    ~RIP~
    2.2 Brazilian rainbow boa ('15 Picasso stripe BRBs "Guin" and "Morzan, and '15 hypo "Homura", '14 normal "Sanji")
    1.0 garter snake ('13 albino checkered "Draco")
    1.0 eastern garter ('13 "Demigod)
    0.0.1 ball python ('06 "Bud")

  10. #18
    BPnet Senior Member CloudtheBoa's Avatar
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    Well all the babies are up and moving around now. Perhaps they're too small/young, but I don't think any of them have any pink eyes. I figured marten was dominant, so why don't I have any pink eyes? Or should I give them time to get bigger? Could the moms not be martens?

    Here's the first, older litter. I have a sneaky suspicion 2-3 of them are silvermane, or at least they're starting to silver out a lot. I've read it takes time for their coats to silver, so by the time they're big enough for snake food I should know for sure. I don't have the slightest idea what the whitest one could be.



    And a couple pics of the other, younger litter, because I haven't been interacting with them as much (due to work I missed the day they opened their eyes) and they're a bit shy. I don't see any that look to be silvermane here, but I'll give them another week at least.



    8.3 Boa imperator ('15 sunglow "Nymeria," '11 normal "Cloud," '16 anery motley "Crona," '10 ghost "Howl," '08 jungle "Dominika," '22 RC pastel hypo jungle "Aleister," '22 pastel normal "Gengar," '22 orangasm hypo "Daemon," '22 poss jungle "Jinzo," '22 poss jungle "Calcifer," '22 motley "Guin")
    1.4 Boa imperator; unnamed '22 hbs
    3.3 Plains garter snakes
    1.2 checkered garter snakes (unnamed)

    ~RIP~
    2.2 Brazilian rainbow boa ('15 Picasso stripe BRBs "Guin" and "Morzan, and '15 hypo "Homura", '14 normal "Sanji")
    1.0 garter snake ('13 albino checkered "Draco")
    1.0 eastern garter ('13 "Demigod)
    0.0.1 ball python ('06 "Bud")

  11. #19
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    Hi there,

    Marten is a recessive gene that is located on the "C-Locus" in rats. It's commonly remarked as c^M in most cases.

    Marten is compatible with all other C-Locus genes, these are:

    Himalayan (Called Siamese in it's Super Form)
    Albino (Traditional Pink Eyed White)
    Marten (Silver to grey in it's heterozygous form, and can be pure black in it's Homozygous form)
    Tonkinese (Brown rat with a paler belly and eyes that are darker than Pink, but lighter than Ruby in it's Heterozygous form. It's Homozygous form is a dark chocolate rat with eyes that are only slightly lighter than the Ruby you'd get from R-Locus Dilutes (Beige and Fawn colors depending on the A-locus (agouti vs black))

    I've got all of the above genes in my collection, but it's not easy for me to post pictures on here from work. I'll try to remember to upload some examples tonight of what I've got in my collection for these genes.

    Your litter looks like Blue to me (d-locus or g-locus) - but I'd lean towards d-locus as it looks "Russian Blue" to me, which is what I work with myself.

    I will confirm that Silvermane is a Dominant gene with no Homozygous form known. It's easiest to see on a Black rat, and can be hard to pick out on lighter rats. The Silvering can come or go as they age, and can disappear.

    There is a recessive gene that is similar that not many work called "Frost" but I've not seen it regularly myself or many people advertising it. I MAY have it in my lines, but it popped out as a recessive coming out during a line/inbreeding setup to reinforce some attributes I liked in the line.

    Best,

    Paul

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  13. #20
    BPnet Senior Member CloudtheBoa's Avatar
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    Re: Back in the Game

    Quote Originally Posted by pbenner View Post
    Hi there,

    Marten is a recessive gene that is located on the "C-Locus" in rats. It's commonly remarked as c^M in most cases.

    Marten is compatible with all other C-Locus genes, these are:

    Himalayan (Called Siamese in it's Super Form)
    Albino (Traditional Pink Eyed White)
    Marten (Silver to grey in it's heterozygous form, and can be pure black in it's Homozygous form)
    Tonkinese (Brown rat with a paler belly and eyes that are darker than Pink, but lighter than Ruby in it's Heterozygous form. It's Homozygous form is a dark chocolate rat with eyes that are only slightly lighter than the Ruby you'd get from R-Locus Dilutes (Beige and Fawn colors depending on the A-locus (agouti vs black))

    I've got all of the above genes in my collection, but it's not easy for me to post pictures on here from work. I'll try to remember to upload some examples tonight of what I've got in my collection for these genes.

    Your litter looks like Blue to me (d-locus or g-locus) - but I'd lean towards d-locus as it looks "Russian Blue" to me, which is what I work with myself.

    I will confirm that Silvermane is a Dominant gene with no Homozygous form known. It's easiest to see on a Black rat, and can be hard to pick out on lighter rats. The Silvering can come or go as they age, and can disappear.

    There is a recessive gene that is similar that not many work called "Frost" but I've not seen it regularly myself or many people advertising it. I MAY have it in my lines, but it popped out as a recessive coming out during a line/inbreeding setup to reinforce some attributes I liked in the line.

    Best,

    Paul
    Thank you so much! The AFRMA link just said marten was dominant (unknown) and I couldn’t find much else on it so I thought it would be dominant. XD So I assume all the babies would be 100% het marten? Rat/mouse genetics don’t seem as straightforward as snake genetics....

    Now, if I were wanting to add individuals or replace my colony with known genetics, what are my best options for doing so? Would an AFRMA certified breeder be willing to sell to me, or mentor me, knowing I’m also breeding for snake food? Or just keep looking on Craigslist for sellers, checking pet stores, etc.?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    8.3 Boa imperator ('15 sunglow "Nymeria," '11 normal "Cloud," '16 anery motley "Crona," '10 ghost "Howl," '08 jungle "Dominika," '22 RC pastel hypo jungle "Aleister," '22 pastel normal "Gengar," '22 orangasm hypo "Daemon," '22 poss jungle "Jinzo," '22 poss jungle "Calcifer," '22 motley "Guin")
    1.4 Boa imperator; unnamed '22 hbs
    3.3 Plains garter snakes
    1.2 checkered garter snakes (unnamed)

    ~RIP~
    2.2 Brazilian rainbow boa ('15 Picasso stripe BRBs "Guin" and "Morzan, and '15 hypo "Homura", '14 normal "Sanji")
    1.0 garter snake ('13 albino checkered "Draco")
    1.0 eastern garter ('13 "Demigod)
    0.0.1 ball python ('06 "Bud")

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