Thriving vs surviving...

[Bogertophis]

We all fight many battles in our life...and while I advocate doing the best we can, I also don't think we have to win them all either. It's not that you're failing him,
it's that reality is failing you. Stop beating yourself up...no matter how appealing he is, he's apparently a better pet for someone in other circumstances, & another
will be just as lucky to have you instead. I see no harm in this...but there is potential harm for him if you wait too long.

[Reinz]

Please don’t beat yourself up. You are proving that you are great pet owner by reaching out like you are and weighing your and your snake’s options. You went the extra miles, you are NOT a failure.

I am very impressed that NERD will work with you. You are obviously striving for Juice’s well being. My hat is off to you. You don’t need to apologize to anyone. You are one of the best caretakers here as well as the one of the most knowledgeable and helpful.

Best of luck with your decision, you’ll make the right one.

[pretends2bnormal]

Thanks for the reply...

He's about 2 1/2 years old. He's around 1,100 grams right now and looking a bit thin since his most recent 300 gram poop/pee.

I'll typically wait around 4 weeks to offer live. So usually 4 offers of F/T before offering live.

I've tried both mice and rats when offering F/T. He's never taken a rat. He'll VERY occasionally take ONE F/T mouse (only about 21-23 grams) and only ONE.

I feed live mice because I can't find rats within a reasonable driving distance.

He's in a 3 foot Neodeshas enclosure. He's been in there since he graduated quarantine about 15 months ago. I've played with temps a bit, but haven't seen any difference in behavior or feeding with different temps. His hot spot is 87-88 and his cool side is around 79-80 with an ambient in the 84 range. He's got enough substrate to burrow, but hardly ever does. He's got 2 RBI hides that fit him well. He usually pushes all the substrate out of the hides and lays on the bare enclosure bottom inside his hides.

I've only tried mice and rats.


Thanks again for the reply. Im open to just about any ideas.

So, I'll preface by saying, I'm definitely not an expert... but I've read and seen a ton of advice from people with a lot of breeding/keeping experience with STPs in another group. I have a bit of a hobby reading all of the problem threads and watching the advice and what winds up working.

First thing that stands out is honestly the temps. From what I've seen with problem feeder and/or poor temperament snakes posted there, the temps usually are a match for yours or higher to match a BP up to 90. Most of the really successful breeders on there are religious about a hot spot being 85 at the most, if offered at all. Most prefer to do 82-84 ambient and nothing else.

What all have you tried for the temps? Any thing like those ^? (78-82/84 ambient, max hot spot 85)

When you offer f/t, does he usually assume a hunting position before you offer? (Head peaking out of hide. In my blood, I'll also see a slight lifted chin off the floor when he is extra alert)

When thinking about blood/stps I try to think of them as large, extra shy ball pythons. All the same "tricks" can be required along the lines of no lights, you staying out of sight, and wandering a f/t feeder past the hide or nose. My guy always strikes when he sees the tail end, for example, right at the hips/rear. He will not strike prey hanging from the tail nor head on unless he is extra amped up that day.

Are there any similarities you can think of about the times he DID take a f/t mouse? Positioning, timing (either time of day or # of weeks without eating or without offering?), etc. Any tiny thing at all might be a clue for what to try to replicate.

I can't recall where, but I have read somewhere that bloods at least eat birds as prey pretty regularly in the wild, so some will take to chicks more easily f/t than other prey. Especially if you have other snakes who can eat chicks if it doesnt work out, that is probably worth trying. I'm not 100% sure how good of a staple they are for STPs, but if he decides they're awesome, it gives you a stronger motivating smell to use to scent rats and try to trick him.

It might be worth a try to give him a "feast", a large live meal maybe 1 extra mouse, (but not so big it risks regurge) and then not offering anything at all for a few weeks. Give him time to digest it and to get thoroughly hungry. Watch for hunting/ambush behavior. My impulse is to say 3-4 weeks skipped, no live and no f/t offerings. Then bring home 1 live mouse and leave it in the room in a cage, scent the room all day if you can, and then offer f/t as realistically as you can. Grab and walk it by the scruff, follow the paths you usually see the live prey follow. If you offer a non-mouse, try to get some bedding to thaw in for scenting as well as the feeder.

If try 1 fails, it may be worth doing a few weeks in a row live to "fatten him up" to a good weight then repeat the above and every time he won't take it, skip offering 2 more weeks. Watch his body condition but I expect most healthy STPs can handle 2 months skipped without much issue. (Also live mice can generally be returned, so your scenting mouse can be taken back if it fails each round.)

What area are you in? I can ask around and see if there's anyone breeding privately up near you. PM me if you don't want to post that specifically publicly.


Apologies for the word vomit, and I didn't see other replies before. I'm more than willing to brainstorm ideas if you want to try, but 100% understandable if you want to rehome and move on to get some peace of mind back. It is very stressful when things don't work regardless of what you try.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[EL-Ziggy]

Don't beat yourself up and don't take it personally brother. We can only do our best and we know that you strive to give ALL your critters the best care. I agree with Bogertophis, we can't win em all. I don't mean to sound callous but I have an eat or starve mentality when it comes to my animals if I know they're not ill. It's my responsibility to offer food and it's their choice to eat. I'll try scenting and braining the prey to get a young animal going, and have fed live to break a long fast, but that's about as far as I'll go. I believe that given enough time they'll either eat what's available or they can starve. I've had a couple of animals go a few months but eventually they all eat. If you don't like the tough love approach then I'd rehome him and find a more cooperative critter but don't lose any sleep over it. You did everything you were supposed to and you shouldn't have to spend a mint because he refuses to eat rats or f/t prey. Just my 2 cents.

[Craiga 01453]

So, I'll preface by saying, I'm definitely not an expert... but I've read and seen a ton of advice from people with a lot of breeding/keeping experience with STPs in another group. I have a bit of a hobby reading all of the problem threads and watching the advice and what winds up working.

First thing that stands out is honestly the temps. From what I've seen with problem feeder and/or poor temperament snakes posted there, the temps usually are a match for yours or higher to match a BP up to 90. Most of the really successful breeders on there are religious about a hot spot being 85 at the most, if offered at all. Most prefer to do 82-84 ambient and nothing else.

What all have you tried for the temps? Any thing like those ^? (78-82/84 ambient, max hot spot 85)

When you offer f/t, does he usually assume a hunting position before you offer? (Head peaking out of hide. In my blood, I'll also see a slight lifted chin off the floor when he is extra alert)

When thinking about blood/stps I try to think of them as large, extra shy ball pythons. All the same "tricks" can be required along the lines of no lights, you staying out of sight, and wandering a f/t feeder past the hide or nose. My guy always strikes when he sees the tail end, for example, right at the hips/rear. He will not strike prey hanging from the tail nor head on unless he is extra amped up that day.

Are there any similarities you can think of about the times he DID take a f/t mouse? Positioning, timing (either time of day or # of weeks without eating or without offering?), etc. Any tiny thing at all might be a clue for what to try to replicate.

I can't recall where, but I have read somewhere that bloods at least eat birds as prey pretty regularly in the wild, so some will take to chicks more easily f/t than other prey. Especially if you have other snakes who can eat chicks if it doesnt work out, that is probably worth trying. I'm not 100% sure how good of a staple they are for STPs, but if he decides they're awesome, it gives you a stronger motivating smell to use to scent rats and try to trick him.

It might be worth a try to give him a "feast", a large live meal maybe 1 extra mouse, (but not so big it risks regurge) and then not offering anything at all for a few weeks. Give him time to digest it and to get thoroughly hungry. Watch for hunting/ambush behavior. My impulse is to say 3-4 weeks skipped, no live and no f/t offerings. Then bring home 1 live mouse and leave it in the room in a cage, scent the room all day if you can, and then offer f/t as realistically as you can. Grab and walk it by the scruff, follow the paths you usually see the live prey follow. If you offer a non-mouse, try to get some bedding to thaw in for scenting as well as the feeder.

If try 1 fails, it may be worth doing a few weeks in a row live to "fatten him up" to a good weight then repeat the above and every time he won't take it, skip offering 2 more weeks. Watch his body condition but I expect most healthy STPs can handle 2 months skipped without much issue. (Also live mice can generally be returned, so your scenting mouse can be taken back if it fails each round.)

What area are you in? I can ask around and see if there's anyone breeding privately up near you. PM me if you don't want to post that specifically publicly.


Apologies for the word vomit, and I didn't see other replies before. I'm more than willing to brainstorm ideas if you want to try, but 100% understandable if you want to rehome and move on to get some peace of mind back. It is very stressful when things don't work regardless of what you try.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Thanks again for the reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to put together such thorough replies. Juice and I both appreciate it.

I have tried lowering temps, as that's what I have read. I ran lower temps for around 60 days and noticed no difference, unfortunately.

I'm also running ambient temps with all my snakes right now. I am not running any belly heat except for my KSB this time of year. So for the past 2 months or so he's been kept at ambient temps about 82-84 with a cool side around 77. Inside his warm hide I haven't recorded any temps above 86 during this time.

When I offer F/T he is definitely in hunting position. He'll have his head out of the hide, slightly elevated and curious. He'll give it a sniff and move on. I've tried dangling, zombie dancing, etc...but my typical method is to walk it past his hide holding it by the scruff behind the neck.
With live, he's practically pressed up against the glass once he smells the prey on the room.
I've tried "tricking" him by offering F/T while live mice are in the room. No dice. I've tried feeding him a live mouse followed by F/T (other live mice still in the room for scent). No dice.

If I'm remembering correctly, the handful of times he took F/T he took them off tongs walked by held by the scruff.

I've tried waiting him out on multiple occasions, filling him up and waiting as long as 6 weeks before offering live. No dice.
I've tried waiting him out after a shed (that's worked for me with BPs on food strikes) I've heard of many people having success switching from live to F/T using that method as well as breaking feeding strikes. No dice.

I haven't really noticed any rhyme or reason to the times he has taken F/T. It seems completely random to me.


Thanks again, please don't apologise for being thorough. I tend to ramble too, but I feel like it helps to be thorough.

I'm in Ayer, MA. North Central part of the state about 20 mins from NH border and 30 minutes west of Boston.

[pretends2bnormal]

Thanks again for the reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to put together such thorough replies. Juice and I both appreciate it.

I have tried lowering temps, as that's what I have read. I ran lower temps for around 60 days and noticed no difference, unfortunately.

I'm also running ambient temps with all my snakes right now. I am not running any belly heat except for my KSB this time of year. So for the past 2 months or so he's been kept at ambient temps about 82-84 with a cool side around 77. Inside his warm hide I haven't recorded any temps above 86 during this time.

When I offer F/T he is definitely in hunting position. He'll have his head out of the hide, slightly elevated and curious. He'll give it a sniff and move on. I've tried dangling, zombie dancing, etc...but my typical method is to walk it past his hide holding it by the scruff behind the neck.
With live, he's practically pressed up against the glass once he smells the prey on the room.
I've tried "tricking" him by offering F/T while live mice are in the room. No dice. I've tried feeding him a live mouse followed by F/T (other live mice still in the room for scent). No dice.

If I'm remembering correctly, the handful of times he took F/T he took them off tongs walked by held by the scruff.

I've tried waiting him out on multiple occasions, filling him up and waiting as long as 6 weeks before offering live. No dice.
I've tried waiting him out after a shed (that's worked for me with BPs on food strikes) I've heard of many people having success switching from live to F/T using that method as well as breaking feeding strikes. No dice.

I haven't really noticed any rhyme or reason to the times he has taken F/T. It seems completely random to me.


Thanks again, please don't apologise for being thorough. I tend to ramble too, but I feel like it helps to be thorough.

I'm in Ayer, MA. North Central part of the state about 20 mins from NH border and 30 minutes west of Boston.

Well, I'm not sure what you consider too far to drive and am not familiar with the area. From a query in the FB group I mentioned, there's a breeder who does rats in Becket, MA, but I think that's pretty far from you. There's also a website for Jabberwock Reptiles in Winchester MA, near Boston I think, that sells live rats and mice but I didn't see a listed price. Might be worth calling and asking their prices.

http://www.jabberwockreptiles.com

If you get him taking live rats, it may make better odds to go straight to f/t rats without needing to mess with scenting; only one variable live vs dead. And you could give pre-killed a try that way.

I would also consider trying f/t chicks or other less conventional prey. Some snakes have unusual tastes, haha.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[bcr229]

I don't know how big your Cali king snake is but mine will happily take f/t chicks, if you decide to go that route with your STP to see if he'd rather eat those than mice or rats. I get mine from local free-range chicken farmers. Rabbit kits are another option; you may find a local breeder near you who keeps them for meat and who would give you the stillborn kits.

[sur3fir3]

I don't know how big your Cali king snake is but mine will happily take f/t chicks, if you decide to go that route with your STP to see if he'd rather eat those than mice or rats. I get mine from local free-range chicken farmers. Rabbit kits are another option; you may find a local breeder near you who keeps them for meat and who would give you the stillborn kits.

Rabbit kit? What is a kit?

[Bogertophis]

Rabbit kit? What is a kit?

A baby rabbit is called a kit, which is short for kitten.

[pretends2bnormal]

Rabbit kit? What is a kit?

Baby rabbit, they can be sold as kits at various weight sizes.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk