Thriving vs surviving...

[Craiga 01453]

Hey all, I'm writing this with a bit of sadness and a heavy heart. But I figured I'd share and get some thoughts from my forum friends...

My Borneo STP is an awesome snake. I love the guy to death. But...

I feel as if he's surviving in my care and not thriving. He's not a great eater, unless I offer live. And I hate having to feed live. I understand it's a part of keeping snakes as pets, but I just hate watching animals die. F/T prey comes to me packaged like food. I see it the same way I see my food. Where feeding live, I see animals, not food.

That, combined with the fact that I can't find a reliable live feeder source within an hour of me, makes feeding an issue. The only place I can find feeders regularly is Petco. At $5 per mouse I have to buy at least 5 since the mice are all under 20 grams so it costs me a fortune to feed him.

I just feel like I'm failing him. All of my other snakes, as well as the snakes I kept in the past, all thrive(d) in my care.
And since he's not thriving I feel like a failure and as if he'd be better off in the care of somebody better equipped to provide for him.

I've already spoken to N E.R.D. and they're happy to take him back for store credit.
I'm seriously considering rehoming him. I really don't want to, but would keeping him here be selfish?

This is the first time I've felt like I'm failing one of my pets (aside from when I rehomed them all years ago because my alcoholism and drug addiction wouldn't allow me to properly care for them). And I feel horrible.

I'm leaning towards rehoming him, but definitely haven't made any final decisions.

What are your thoughts?

[jmcrook]

Have you tried transitioning to f/t using fresh killed? I had to do that with my first ball python years ago. While I certainly didn’t enjoy killing those first couple mice, he transitioned right over to f/t after that.
I feel ya, man. These can be super tough decisions to make


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[Craiga 01453]

Have you tried transitioning to f/t using fresh killed? I had to do that with my first ball python years ago. While I certainly didn’t enjoy killing those first couple mice, he transitioned right over to f/t after that.
I feel ya, man. These can be super tough decisions to make


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That's actually the one thing I haven't tried.

[Toad37]

I think this choice is completely up to you and how you feel about the animals well being. It takes a big person to see that fact that they can't properly provide for an animal so I give you major props for realizing that and admitting it not only to yourself but to everyone else. Honestly if I myself were in your position where the breeder (N.E.R.D.) is willing to take the animal back that's probably the route I would go. And since they're giving you store credit they have a ton of other animals that are way easier to care and provide for. You've already taken the first step in realizing there's an issue. And that's a big step. Whatever you chose to do I'm sure it will be the right choice and it has to be your choice not ours.

[pretends2bnormal]

That's certainly an awful position to be in and I can definitely sympathize. Before I finally got my spider BP off live, I felt pretty bad about it too. I don't have as much issue feeding live nor sourcing it, but he has a wobble and had gotten a close call with one before he swapped; a claw or glancing bite (never figured out which) right behind an eye; surface damage to a scale or two, but too close for comfort with his aim being subpar.

It is a serious choice to rehome or keep, and I think that as long as you're willing to keep trying and work with him it wouldn't be selfish as long as he's still in good health. If it goes beyond your ability to keep him healthy despite efforts to work with him, that's the line I'd draw.

Would you mind giving a bit of a refresher about the details?

I've seen bits and pieces, but feel like I'm missing a few things.

How big is he and what is his age?

How many refusals have you pushed before giving in and doing live? (I.e. if he refused 3 f/t rats week after week, you then gave live week 4)

Is he on mice because you can't source live rats or because he refuses live rats?

What's his enclosure like? Dimensions, tub vs PVC vs glass, etc. What temps do you use? I know I've seen some variation in different STP communities where individuals respond stronger the differences in temperature more than other species.

Does he have hides or deep substrate?

Have you ever tried feeding f/t chicks? Or just mice/rats?

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[Craiga 01453]

That's certainly an awful position to be in and I can definitely sympathize. Before I finally got my spider BP off live, I felt pretty bad about it too. I don't have as much issue feeding live nor sourcing it, but he has a wobble and had gotten a close call with one before he swapped; a claw or glancing bite (never figured out which) right behind an eye; surface damage to a scale or two, but too close for comfort with his aim being subpar.

It is a serious choice to rehome or keep, and I think that as long as you're willing to keep trying and work with him it wouldn't be selfish as long as he's still in good health. If it goes beyond your ability to keep him healthy despite efforts to work with him, that's the line I'd draw.

Would you mind giving a bit of a refresher about the details?

I've seen bits and pieces, but feel like I'm missing a few things.

How big is he and what is his age?

How many refusals have you pushed before giving in and doing live? (I.e. if he refused 3 f/t rats week after week, you then gave live week 4)

Is he on mice because you can't source live rats or because he refuses live rats?

What's his enclosure like? Dimensions, tub vs PVC vs glass, etc. What temps do you use? I know I've seen some variation in different STP communities where individuals respond stronger the differences in temperature more than other species.

Does he have hides or deep substrate?

Have you ever tried feeding f/t chicks? Or just mice/rats?

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Thanks for the reply...

He's about 2 1/2 years old. He's around 1,100 grams right now and looking a bit thin since his most recent 300 gram poop/pee.

I'll typically wait around 4 weeks to offer live. So usually 4 offers of F/T before offering live.

I've tried both mice and rats when offering F/T. He's never taken a rat. He'll VERY occasionally take ONE F/T mouse (only about 21-23 grams) and only ONE.

I feed live mice because I can't find rats within a reasonable driving distance.

He's in a 3 foot Neodeshas enclosure. He's been in there since he graduated quarantine about 15 months ago. I've played with temps a bit, but haven't seen any difference in behavior or feeding with different temps. His hot spot is 87-88 and his cool side is around 79-80 with an ambient in the 84 range. He's got enough substrate to burrow, but hardly ever does. He's got 2 RBI hides that fit him well. He usually pushes all the substrate out of the hides and lays on the bare enclosure bottom inside his hides.

I've only tried mice and rats.


Thanks again for the reply. Im open to just about any ideas.

[Craiga 01453]

I think this choice is completely up to you and how you feel about the animals well being. It takes a big person to see that fact that they can't properly provide for an animal so I give you major props for realizing that and admitting it not only to yourself but to everyone else. Honestly if I myself were in your position where the breeder (N.E.R.D.) is willing to take the animal back that's probably the route I would go. And since they're giving you store credit they have a ton of other animals that are way easier to care and provide for. You've already taken the first step in realizing there's an issue. And that's a big step. Whatever you chose to do I'm sure it will be the right choice and it has to be your choice not ours.

Yeah, ultimately it's up to me. I just figured I'd get some thoughts.
Having an animal in my care that's not thriving is new to me. So I've got a bit of a moral conundrum bouncing around in my head.
I'm glad the folks at N.E.R.D. are willing to help. And obviously I'd have PLENTY of options to spend store credit.

I'm really good at beating myself up. So I was questioning whether or not I'm overreacting or justifiably concerned that I'm failing him.
I figured some outside opinions may help me to sort through my crazy little brain, hahahhaha.

Thanks for the reply.

[Bogertophis]

It's not fun to have to breed your own rodents to supply a finicky eater that needs live...you have enough to do already, right? Also miserable to be stuck buying
over-priced live prey if you cannot get him switched, & not all snakes cooperate, or if they do, it's in their "own good time".

What I think is that you also don't need something that's weighing you down psychologically, as this situation obviously is.
And since you "hate watching animals die" I don't think you'll enjoy trying to transition him to fresh-killed prey either.

We all need to re-assess our priorities now & then...I commend you for being honest with yourself, & I guarantee I wouldn't think less of you or anyone who realizes
they've made a mistake and acquired the "wrong" pet for their circumstances, so whatever your decision, I support it.

[Craiga 01453]

It's not fun to have to breed your own rodents to supply a finicky eater that needs live...you have enough to do already, right? Also miserable to be stuck buying
over-priced live prey if you cannot get him switched, & not all snakes cooperate, or if they do, it's in their "own good time".

What I think is that you also don't need something that's weighing you down psychologically, as this situation obviously is.

We all need to re-assess our priorities now & then...I commend you for being honest with yourself, & I guarantee I wouldn't think less of you or anyone who realizes
they've made a mistake and acquired the "wrong" pet for their circumstances, so whatever your decision, I support it.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's definitely renting a lot of space is my already cluttered head. I keep trying to convince myself that if I do re-home him it's because "we just weren't the right fit for each other" rather than feeling like I'm failing him...but easier said than done.
It's just so foreign to me to have an animal not thrive in my care. I obviously don't consider myself an expert by any means, but I'm no rookie either. I don't feel like it's a matter of "not being qualified" for the species, but a matter of not having the appropriate resources to provide the "extra" that he requires.

[jmcrook]

I’ve never kept bloods or short tails, but I have read that some of them don’t like as much of a hot spot as other python species. Have you tried a lower warm side temp with more of a low 80s ambient?


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