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  1. #1
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    Cohabitating different species

    Here are some new information about my ongoing “bioactive themed enclosure” project. (If you are not familiar with my Spilotes pullatus enclosure here is a link to the original thread about my enclosure and all details of it. -->https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...lotes-pullatus )

    When the bioactive enclosure started to work and the cleanup crew of isopods and springtails started to grow in numbers I started to think that this environment would be ideal for dart frogs. I started to investigate if there was any information about cohabitating colubrids and dart frogs and found – nothing (not really surprisingly).

    After more than a year of planning and thinking I decided to give it a try and bought a trio of Dendrobates tinctorius, a species from the same location as my Spilotes pullatus. When I added the first frog I spend several hours watching it and the reaction of the snakes very closely. The snakes where curious and reacted to the movement of the frog, but did never attempt to hunt it, even when it was in easy striking distance (or on top of the snake).

    When the first dart frog had “survived” his first week I added the other two as well. They use the whole enclosure, sometimes even hiding under / between /on top of a resting or basking snake. They provide an additional stimulus for the snakes, because they react to the movements of the frogs, watch them but obviously “know” that they should not eat something colored like this. Another positive effect I had not expected was the frogs hunting small prey directly on top of the snakes, I saw several hunting jumps for small prey I couldn’t see, but the frog got something and ate it. I provide some Drosophila as additional food for the frogs.

    Three months later this has turned out to be a real Win-Win situation for both cohabitated species. There are definitely enrichment factors for both, frogs and snakes. The obvious enrichment for the frogs are 2 square meter of floor space and 3 cubic meter of volume with numerous branches they can use to climb and several plants covering the ground and providing additional hiding places. They have a steady amount of small prey items (isopods, springtails and Drosophila) and they are not hunted by the snakes. On the other hand they have to hunt for their prey, it is not located on a small place but all over the enclosure, hidden in the dead leaves, the moss or between other plants. The only time they have easy pickings is when I add a new breeding colony of Drosophila. Then the three frogs spend two days right on top of the box and eating any fly trying to get out. But after two or three days most of the surviving Drosophila have spread all over the place and the frogs have to work again.

    For the snakes the frogs offer an additional stimulus. They react to the movement of the frogs, they watch them and are really alert. However, they don’t try to hunt them, they don’t strike for them, even if they are in easy range. This was what I was hoping for, but what I had not considered was the fact that the frogs would actually hunt small prey directly from the back of the snakes. So they provide some kind of laundry service to get rid of flies and other small invertebrates resting on the snakes.


    Dendrobates tinctorius hunting on the back of the male Spilotes pullatus




    Dendrobates tinctorius climbing on the back of the female Spilotes pullatus



    Dendrobates tinctorius climbing on the back of the female Spilotes pullatus













    1,0 Lampropeltis triangulum campbelli, 1,2 Gonyosoma oxycephalum, 1,2 Philodryas baroni, 1,2 Spilotes pullatus, 2,1 Spilotes sulphureus, 0,1 Gonyosoma boulengeri, 1,1 Zamenis longissimus, 0,1 Malpolon sp., 1,1 Malpolon monspessulanus

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  3. #2
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    That's fascinating! And you're braver than me, the sources I've seen say these snakes will eat most anything, including frogs. Though if yours is well-fed & the
    frogs are pretty small, they might not be worth bothering with? That's cool that the frogs eat bugs off the snake too, lol...
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  5. #3
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    Re: Cohabitating different species

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    That's fascinating! And you're braver than me, the sources I've seen say these snakes will eat most anything, including frogs. Though if yours is well-fed & the
    frogs are pretty small, they might not be worth bothering with? That's cool that the frogs eat bugs off the snake too, lol...
    What sources are these? Most of what I could find stated that adult Spilotes pullatus would mainly feed on small mammals and occasionally on nestling birds or eggs, I found no reliable source pointing out that they would feed on frogs or other reptiles. Sure there are some “care sheets” telling you that they will feed on everything they can get (usually the same care sheets describing them as always aggressive biting machines from authors who have most likely never seen any Spilotes close and personally). My best source for deciding on food composition is this paper:

    “Otavio A. V. Marques, Diego F. Muniz-Da-Silva, Fausto E. Barbo, Silvia R. Travaglia Cardoso, Danusa C. Maia, and Selma M. Almeida-Santos: Ecology of the Colubrid Snake Spilotes pullatus from the Atlantic Forest of Southeastern Brazil, Herpetologica, 70(4):407-416. 2014”

    Your point of size differences is one I considered myself as well, it makes no sense for my big male (2.5 m / 8 ft, 3.5 kg) to hunt for a tiny frog, he would waste maybe twice the energy to swallow it as he would gain from digesting it.

    However my main reasoning was (still is) that my snakes are WC from French Guiana. It was absolutely clear that I would only try this with a frog species which can be also found in French Guiana, that was one of the main reasons why I took Dendrobates tinctorius, this frog can be found all over there. The snakes should “know” that it is extremely unwise to eat a frog with this color scheme, otherwise this warning coloration would not make any sense. I am not sure if this would have worked with other dart frogs from somewhere else, like southern Brazil, which are not found in Guiana. I didn’t want to find out if the warning coloration is “general” enough to be recognized even if the locality of snake and frog is thousand miles apart from each other.

    I am also not sure if it would work with sub adult Spilotes, for a 100 to 120 cm (3 to 4 ft) long snake a dart frog would be just the right size for dinner and we know next to nothing about feeding behavior of young Spilotes in the wild, so I will do this cohabitation only with adult snakes.
    1,0 Lampropeltis triangulum campbelli, 1,2 Gonyosoma oxycephalum, 1,2 Philodryas baroni, 1,2 Spilotes pullatus, 2,1 Spilotes sulphureus, 0,1 Gonyosoma boulengeri, 1,1 Zamenis longissimus, 0,1 Malpolon sp., 1,1 Malpolon monspessulanus

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    Your research was undoubtedly more thorough than mine...
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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    I'm not really getting involved with an opinion, but I know the guys over at dendroboard.com would be absolutely losing their s right now if they saw this.

    I think their response would be something about undue stress to the frogs that would cause health or quality of life problems. You can't really ask a frog how stressed they are, so erring on the side of caution would be best. Dart frogs are very fragile and can die easily.

    I've had darts for about 5 years, and snakes about the same. I'm not an expert in either, but I would personally not do this. But I'm also curious, best of luck.

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    I will advise you on feeding though. The micro fauna is not nearly enough food for the darts, even with a culture placed inside. The cultures are meant to be allowed to produce for up to a month and you feed a small portion daily.

    I start 2 cultures a week for my 6 darts and it's barely enough.

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    Re: Cohabitating different species

    Thanks for providing an answer from the frogs point of view…

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    I'm not really getting involved with an opinion, but I know the guys over at dendroboard.com would be absolutely losing their s right now if they saw this. [...]
    That was my experience when I tried to gather information prior getting the frogs. When I talked to frog keepers and described my enclosure they got dreamy eyes and told me that this would be a perfect enclosure for dart frogs – until I mentioned the snakes, then they were in complete denial mode immediately. But when I asked them for a reason the only answer I got was something like “You just don’t do it” or “We have never done it like that”, without even knowing what a tiger rat snake was, how long it would be or what it would eat.

    Just in case you haven’t read the older post, here is a picture of my enclosure, so you know what I am talking about



    It is 250 x 90 x 190 cm (ca. 8 x 3 x 6 ft) length x width x height.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    [...]I think their response would be something about undue stress to the frogs that would cause health or quality of life problems. You can't really ask a frog how stressed they are, so erring on the side of caution would be best. Dart frogs are very fragile and can die easily.[...]
    The frogs are active as soon as the lights are on at the early morning and start searching for food for some time. In the late morning they will go into their hides and usually stay there until I start spraying water in the late afternoon or in the evening. Then they will come out again to hunt for flies etc. which are startled by the water. Sometimes they will roam the enclosure during other times as well, but their main activity is in the morning and after the “rain”. When they are out, they will search the whole 2 square meter floor space for food, climb any branch and most of the plants and will even climb the walls to the full high of the enclosure, often right under the nose of one or both snakes. The frogs just ignore the snakes. When a snake is near them, they continue doing what they do in this moment, walking, hopping or climbing, hunting etc. without any particular hurry. They are especially not in “panic mode”, trying to reach any probable hiding place, they just walk/hop/climb by the snake.

    So I don’t see any indication that they are feeling stressed. They don’t try to be stealthy, they don’t try to stay hidden as often as possible, they don’t flee the snakes – heck, as I said, they will sometimes climb on the back of the snake to hunt for some flies. Does this sound like a stressed frog? Just yesterday I heard the male calling, he might be trying to mate with the females. Does this sound like a fearful animal?


    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    I will advise you on feeding though. The micro fauna is not nearly enough food for the darts, even with a culture placed inside. The cultures are meant to be allowed to produce for up to a month and you feed a small portion daily.

    I start 2 cultures a week for my 6 darts and it's barely enough.
    OK, fair enough, I didn’t make this clear enough. The bioactive enclosure is running since September 2017 with a stabile population of springtails and white isopods. The three frogs are in there for nearly 4 months now, feeding partly on the CUC, but if you look closely the population of the CUC is not really diminished, there are still isopods and springtails where ever you look. In addition I add a breeding colony of drosophila (complete with transport box) into the enclosure every week or every second week. In this breeding box are several already adult flies which are caught by the frogs or hide in the plants, dead leaves or in the moss and add additional prey the frogs have to hunt for. The box provides new flies for the next couple of days and when I can’t see any flies in the enclosure the frogs will get a new one. So there are the CUC as always available food source and the flies as preferred prey.

    Again, I think this is really an important form of enrichment for the frogs. If you look at most enclosures for dart frogs they are rather small (big enough for the frogs, but still small compared with my enclosure). A small enclosure means that the prey is concentrated on a small place and the frogs just sit there and eat, they don’t really have to hunt. In my enclosure they have to work for getting enough food, they walk/hop/climb sometimes for hours. The only time they have easy pickings is when I add a new breeding colony of flies, then the frogs will just sit on top of the box and grab flies as soon as they leave the box.

    That’s why I disagree with your assumption that my frogs might be stressed, and from what I could see so far they are far from fragile. Of course the environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, light) have to be right, but that’s not different to the snakes as well.
    1,0 Lampropeltis triangulum campbelli, 1,2 Gonyosoma oxycephalum, 1,2 Philodryas baroni, 1,2 Spilotes pullatus, 2,1 Spilotes sulphureus, 0,1 Gonyosoma boulengeri, 1,1 Zamenis longissimus, 0,1 Malpolon sp., 1,1 Malpolon monspessulanus

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  15. #8
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    Well it's obviously working & that's a beautiful enclosure too, I might add.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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    Re: Cohabitating different species

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    I'm not really getting involved with an opinion, but I know the guys over at dendroboard.com would be absolutely losing their s right now if they saw this.

    I think their response would be something about undue stress to the frogs that would cause health or quality of life problems. You can't really ask a frog how stressed they are, so erring on the side of caution would be best. Dart frogs are very fragile and can die easily.

    I've had darts for about 5 years, and snakes about the same. I'm not an expert in either, but I would personally not do this. But I'm also curious, best of luck.
    My response to their response would simply be the pictures of the Dendrobates on the Spilotes backs, haha. Sure you can't ask a frog how stressed they are but these frogs are obviously comfortable enough with their living situation that they are 1)still hunting and eating, and 2)utilizing the snakes themselves as springboards. Well done on the enclosure, Roman. I think the only thing missing(or at least that isn't shown) is a nice, comfy sitting area for you to hang out and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

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  18. #10
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    Well I see that you really have done the research and have a well made viv. You also care about the animals, and dont seem to be a dummy just dumping animals in together for no good reason.

    As far as dendroboard, there are a lot of legitimate scientists and zoologists over there. People who have spent their entire lives doing lab work and field research in South America. Some have literally wrote the books on darts. So, I do take their advice when I can. One thing they DO NOT tolerate is mixing frog species and morphs, as the goal with darts is to keep the gene pool in pristine condition as it is found in nature, and it has been for a long time. If you mix darts you will quickly be ostracised from the hobby.

    Your frogs do sound like they are doing well. Just keep an eye on weight and humidity and you should be alright. Please give updates, especially if you start getting eggs. You can pull them or let them grow in the tank.

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