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  1. #1
    Registered User KKM's Avatar
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    Should I cull infanticidal mother?

    My mouse gave birth to a large litter this morning and was observed eating one of her pups when I first saw them. Since mice often eat their sickly/stillborn babies I didn’t think much of it. Fast forward like six hours and there are 3 and a half (she’s eating another one now) left. I did not disturb the nest at all or even open the cage, and yet she’s still killing and eating them. The way she kills them, too... it’s way more brutal than even a live feeding (which I don’t do to begin with) and I’m honestly tempted to just humanely cull the remaining pinkies myself so they’re not slowly eaten alive. If she ends up eating all of them, it’ll be really hard for me not to instantly cull her too. I know I’m anthropomorphizing a mouse but I can’t unsee those babies squealing as their limbs were being eaten by their own mother.

    The problem is that these are show-line mice, and I have a limited number (1.3) with none available to replace her at the moment. Since this was not environmental or nutritional, what are the odds she will kill a future litter? She is a first-time mom. I’ve heard infanticide can be a genetic behavior and if that’s likely to be the case, I’ll just CO2 her now and save myself the headache.
    1.1 ball pythons, 2.0 BCIs, 1.0 western hognose, 1.0 honduran milk, 1.0 corn snake, 1.0 kenyan sand boa, 1.0 pueblan milk, 1.0 MBK, 1.0 checkered garter, 1.0 eastern garter, 1.0 coast garter, 1.0 plains garter

  2. #2
    BPnet Senior Member Lord Sorril's Avatar
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    Re: Should I cull infanticidal mother?

    It is common for female mice to kill their first litter.

    Some lines of mice are better moms than others.

    If she kills her next litter-that should be the end of her.
    *.* TNTC

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  4. #3
    BPnet Veteran pretends2bnormal's Avatar
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    Re: Should I cull infanticidal mother?

    Since you have no way to really replace her, I'd say you should give her a 2nd try.

    But for me, she would be an instant cull. Even my crappy, skittish pet store mice don't kill litters, regardless if it is their first. It's not a trait I'd want to breed into a line and it is pretty likely to happen again if she kills the entire litter this time. If she stops after a few, it may be her culling down the weakest babies for reasons we can't see, but killing the full litter wouldn't fly for me.

    Just for the sake of thoroughness, what is the feed and housing situation? I know you say it isn't the cause, but it can't hurt to confirm it anyway.

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  6. #4
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Sometimes they mess up on the first litter (eating placentas & get carried away); if you catch them in the process & clean up the babies & give them back, some
    do catch on & don't eat those. 2nd litter eaten is an automatic cull...mouse is dinner! Not all mice are good moms...
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  8. #5
    Registered User KKM's Avatar
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    Update: It’s the next morning and I can still see a few left!! There are at least 5 from what I can see and they all have full milk bellies so I know she’s feeding them. I really want to cull the males early on so as to cut down competition & let the females get larger, but there’s no way I’m going to try and touch them now. How many days should I wait before touching them (obviously removing the adults first)? I have latex gloves that I usually use for handling neonates but I’m still super nervous. I think she may have just been culling the litter to a manageable size but it seems small for that, so I’m really at a loss here.

    To answer the diet/housing question, they’re in a 10g with lots of hides and enrichment and are fed Mazuri with supplementation. This is what the breeder I got them from fed them so I’ve just stuck to it and they’ve thrived. The food is pretty high in protein even for breeding mice (~21%) so I don’t think that’s the problem.

    Fortunately, the other mice seem to be helping as I’ve witnessed one other female as well as my buck “babysitting” the jellybeans.
    1.1 ball pythons, 2.0 BCIs, 1.0 western hognose, 1.0 honduran milk, 1.0 corn snake, 1.0 kenyan sand boa, 1.0 pueblan milk, 1.0 MBK, 1.0 checkered garter, 1.0 eastern garter, 1.0 coast garter, 1.0 plains garter

  9. #6
    BPnet Veteran pretends2bnormal's Avatar
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    Re: Should I cull infanticidal mother?

    Quote Originally Posted by KKM View Post
    Update: It’s the next morning and I can still see a few left!! There are at least 5 from what I can see and they all have full milk bellies so I know she’s feeding them. I really want to cull the males early on so as to cut down competition & let the females get larger, but there’s no way I’m going to try and touch them now. How many days should I wait before touching them (obviously removing the adults first)? I have latex gloves that I usually use for handling neonates but I’m still super nervous. I think she may have just been culling the litter to a manageable size but it seems small for that, so I’m really at a loss here.

    To answer the diet/housing question, they’re in a 10g with lots of hides and enrichment and are fed Mazuri with supplementation. This is what the breeder I got them from fed them so I’ve just stuck to it and they’ve thrived. The food is pretty high in protein even for breeding mice (~21%) so I don’t think that’s the problem.

    Fortunately, the other mice seem to be helping as I’ve witnessed one other female as well as my buck “babysitting” the jellybeans.
    That's a good sign, at least. Sometimes I've seen and heard first litters that are just not healthy. Might have been her culling non-visual defects.

    I've never had issues with handling my mice as early as 24 hrs old if I remove adults then do the babies, and put the ba is back into a nest then re-add adults. I'd give it 2 or 3 days on this one just in case, but that's not really any hard rule. With only 5 or so, the competition is s ow as to be basically irrelevant anyway. Mice have 10 nipples, so they should all be fine as-is with that quantity.


    I've never heard a good thing about tanks for mice or rats due to the height and ammonia build-up in the air being irritating and potential for RI if not cleaned frequently enough, so if this becomes a recurring problem, you might consider trying alternative housing (such as with side ventilation). I'm not sure if it is as big of a factor for mice, but it would be for rats for sure and the lower quality air can trigger the same sorts of baby eating as other environmental stressors.

    The feed sounds fine, though I have seen mention by show mouse breeders before that some lines are nore sensitive to diets with high protein AND ones with too low protein and have similar effects, but if the original breeder used the same diet, that's not likely to be an issue for yours.

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  11. #7
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    I've raised mice for many years...I prefer 1:2 ratio. Just like the old saying, "too many cooks spoil the broth", too many mice results in worse breeding results.

    When mice are compatible, they DO help each other, but if there's too many, the risk of "competition" also increases, & the others may keep stealing the babies
    when they can't even nurse them, just being "possessive". I only use lab cages, as already mentioned in previous post, glass tanks aren't a good option.

    This is a good sign that she has kept at least some of the babies...very hard to count on 'first litters', the moms do get better with experience. The babies might
    have been killed because she was craving more protein/fat also...I feed mine lab blocks but supplement their diet with sunflower seeds (or nuts) & bits of greens.

    If I'm there when a mouse is having trouble (like setting aside all the babies without cleaning them up) I intervene: I use my giant tweezers (aka snake feeding
    tongs) to remove the pinkies, & clean them up myself before putting them back. They look more fragile than they really are: just wipe off the membrane with your
    finger (especially on their nose & face), & use a tiny scissors to snip the placenta off so they can breathe; if they are blue (not breathing) & you want to save them,
    you often can by doing rapid mini-chest compressions with your finger tip...you'll see them open their mouth & get going & turn pink...it's pretty cool. (yes, I am
    serious!) So when I've played "midwife" for a mouse, I then just give the babies back & they generally catch on from there, & the next litter they know what to do.

    My mice are pretty mellow about me "butting in" & don't bite when handled, but some strains may have more nervous personalities. I do not use gloves of any kind.


    But, as I said before, some mice just do NOT make good parents, & repeat offenders (those who kill &/or eat their babies) are "snake food", as are male mice
    that become overly aggressive. (some males can be real jerks too, even attacking the females)
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 06-24-2019 at 01:27 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  13. #8
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    FYI: another thing I do (for maximum productivity):

    Mice don't usually have litters at the same time, so in a trio, the first litter will have a head start...they'll be bigger & nursing the most when the other mouse gives
    birth. Some mouse-moms will automatically kill/eat the last litter born, but even if they keep them all together, they'll be too weak to feed & thrive among their
    much bigger siblings.

    So...I often swap some babies to even up the sizes, & as long as you mix them together & in the shavings*, the mice won't notice or care. Of course, this only works
    if you have multiple cages going, as I do. (*you want to avoid having them notice the scent of a different male mouse on the new babies you've mixed in) This also
    works best when done at the same time as you clean cages, as there's a little bit of chaos already, but 2 moms nursing a bigger litter of all pinks or all fuzzies works
    much better for maximum survival. Raising productive mice takes a little strategy & being sneaky...
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    The other time you'll see mice killing (& eating, or at least chewing up terribly) their babies is when they get older, are done breeding & sense they cannot feed
    these & have just "had it!" Let's face it...if you have a weak stomach, you perhaps don't want to breed mice. LOL

    But at the same time, it IS fun to revive the ignored newborns, & FYI, they get along quite a while without breathing. In my experience, they have maybe as
    much as 30 minutes when you can still clean them up & revive them, though 20 minutes is a better goal for survival. They can look blue & dead, no motion
    at all, & can still be revived...the first time I tried it, I was amazed. I just figured, what have I got to lose?

    Breeding mice is work but rewarding too. I'm proud of my "herd" & I don't hate mice...and it's not snake's fault they are designed to consume them either. Even
    after breeding mice for so long, it's still hard sometimes to cull out the excess # when they're all so cute & healthy. But that's life. The best are held back
    for breeding, & that mimics what nature (& natural selection) does...the strong mostly survive.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  17. #10
    Registered User KKM's Avatar
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    I agree completely. I honestly don’t think I have a weak stomach at all since I have no problems culling them myself which is arguably more difficult. That said, I do it because my snakes have to eat, whereas mother mice eating their newborns (especially in a brutal way) is unnecessary, so I’d like to avoid it as much as I can.

    I love mice too, which is why I’m so selective about the ones I choose to breed. For that reason, I only have one colony at the moment (all unrelated). In hindsight I should have gotten more but oh well. Fortunately, if I ever absolutely need a foster mother, my local reptile store always has litters of all ages so I could in theory get a temporary female with pups the same age as a younger litter getting outcompeted.

    However, by the time the third litter is born there will probably be only around 3 in each of the older litters anyway as I automatically cull males as soon as I can so as to let the female pups grow more (it’s been shown that male pups are much more greedy than their sisters) and then slowly feed off the ones I don’t need while they’re still relatively young. Since most of my snakes eat pinkies or fuzzies, it works out really well this way. I just want to make sure mama won’t start killing off remaining pups if I disturb the nest, hence the apprehension about culling males now.
    1.1 ball pythons, 2.0 BCIs, 1.0 western hognose, 1.0 honduran milk, 1.0 corn snake, 1.0 kenyan sand boa, 1.0 pueblan milk, 1.0 MBK, 1.0 checkered garter, 1.0 eastern garter, 1.0 coast garter, 1.0 plains garter

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