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  1. #11
    Registered User Timelugia's Avatar
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    Re: And They Complain About Snakes On A Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Neal View Post

    ESA's in a Kennel still in the interior of the plane bark, and prevent people from sleeping, plus it makes an irritating flight, so no they shouldn't be by the owners side, if the owner can't accept that, then drive.
    I want to say dogs in kennels are still allowed on planes though- at least sometimes. And they don't even need to be ESA's.

  2. #12
    BPnet Senior Member Sonny1318's Avatar
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    Re: And They Complain About Snakes On A Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Neal View Post
    It's completely legal to ship venomous via Delta Cargo. When I said people honestly don't know, I mean the people flying on the plane. The staff that load and unload the plane know what's on there because it has a big Live Animal Sticker than papers taped on it that say VENOMOUS SNAKES and you have to write the species on the outside of the shipping container.

    So the passengers flying on the plane have no idea what's actually on the plane. When large constrictors get to a certain size you have to ship them this way as well through Delta Cargo.
    I understand what Neal is saying perfectly, I too, used delta for years back in the early nineties. No one is put at danger. Most people handling the package never really know what’s inside (or care, they’re busy moving thousands of packages).I worked for the largest airfreight company in the world out of ORD. I sure the packages are marked properly, you really don’t want to get caught doing that kinda stuff. Peace.
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  3. #13
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: And They Complain About Snakes On A Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Neal View Post
    It's completely legal to ship venomous via Delta Cargo. When I said people honestly don't know, I mean the people flying on the plane. The staff that load and unload the plane know what's on there because it has a big Live Animal Sticker than papers taped on it that say VENOMOUS SNAKES and you have to write the species on the outside of the shipping container.

    So the passengers flying on the plane have no idea what's actually on the plane. When large constrictors get to a certain size you have to ship them this way as well through Delta Cargo.
    Sorry that I misunderstood you...I thought you meant that you were shipping unlabeled as freight (as some people really do, illegally of course) & I'm GLAD to know
    that's not the case, I didn't expect that of you. Since many people may read what is posted here, it's a good thing we cleared that up. I know how to ship hots...I've
    had to ship a few myself, years ago. And when I did so, some of the airport personnel recounted to me that they've had close calls with venomous snakes that were
    not double-boxed as required, and when they went to lift the crate by the hand-hold cut-outs, a snake that had escaped from the bag inside started to come out of
    where they were about to put their hands! So again, thank you for clarifying what you posted...if it wasn't clear to me, it probably wasn't clear to others as well.

  4. #14
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: And They Complain About Snakes On A Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Neal View Post
    Let's be realistic when we talk about people needing ESA's here, the people who actually have them because they want versus really need. ESA's weren't even a thing until people made it a big deal a few years back then people wanted to start saying they were just like service dogs.

    ESA's in a Kennel still in the interior of the plane bark, and prevent people from sleeping, plus it makes an irritating flight, so no they shouldn't be by the owners side, if the owner can't accept that, then drive.

    I do agree it was stupid to allow a large dog on a plane though. Service dogs go through so much training and listen to commands, an ESA is no more than a pet animal. I don't say this to be mean or anything but it's bull. I mean if this is the case I want to start taking my cobra with me as my ESA, right who said it has to be a dog, or why not a crocodile?
    Perhaps because certain corporations make a lot of money this way our country seems to be in a perpetual state of military "involvement" (aka war) in various parts
    of the world. That means we have no shortage of former service-members who may need an ESA, just as some civilians do. Just because this wasn't a "thing" before
    doesn't mean it isn't helpful to many people now, but it also doesn't preclude some from abusing the system. I agree the situation needs clarified & regulated, but that
    takes leadership, with knowledgeable people in charge who actually CARE, to get this done...I don't see that happening currently, but I remain hopeful for the future.

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  6. #15
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: And They Complain About Snakes On A Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Neal View Post
    ...ESA's in a Kennel still in the interior of the plane bark, and prevent people from sleeping, plus it makes an irritating flight, so no they
    shouldn't be by the owners side, if the owner can't accept that, then drive...
    By the way, I get where you're coming from, it's irritating that people can abuse the system & that needs to be fixed, but by this criteria (making noise & disturbing
    others) perhaps all babies & tantrum-prone children should be in the hold of the plane too? Or would you make all parents drive as well? Whether you realize it or not,
    the reality is that we're all feeling the effects of living in a more stressed & crowded world, & instead of hostility, we need to work on getting along -on making it work.

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  8. #16
    Venom Life Neal's Avatar
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    Re: And They Complain About Snakes On A Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    By the way, I get where you're coming from, it's irritating that people can abuse the system & that needs to be fixed, but by this criteria (making noise & disturbing
    others) perhaps all babies & tantrum-prone children should be in the hold of the plane too? Or would you make all parents drive as well? Whether you realize it or not,
    the reality is that we're all feeling the effects of living in a more stressed & crowded world, & instead of hostility, we need to work on getting along -on making it work.
    I get what you're saying also, but it's legal to keep an animal in a kennel in the hold. It's not legal to do that with a human so the comparison isn't really a comparison. If I'm flying somewhere and they have a baby, if it's over an hour flight I have asked to be moved to a different flight. It's never happened to me before on an international, but that's a little different and I sleep on those flights anyways because I'm prescribed stuff to help me sleep. I can't do that on a US based flight because of what I take.
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  9. #17
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: And They Complain About Snakes On A Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Neal View Post
    ...If I'm flying somewhere and they have a baby, if it's over an hour flight I have asked to be moved to a different flight. It's never happened to me before on an international, but that's a little different and I sleep on those flights anyways because I'm prescribed stuff to help me sleep. I can't do that on a US based flight because of what I take.
    I wouldn't want a long flight next to a baby (or spoiled child) either- not that I sleep during flights, I just don't want to hear it, lol. So far it's never happened...been lucky.

    Anyway, back to dogs on flights, it's outrageous that it wasn't adequately restrained...both owner & airline are responsible, seems to me. And stuff like
    this shouldn't have to happen before they know better & prevent it. I wouldn't mind sitting next to a well-behaved AND restrained dog on a flight though.
    In fact, I'd probably prefer it...
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 06-02-2019 at 09:20 PM.

  10. #18
    BPnet Senior Member artgecko's Avatar
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    I have a friend that trains service dogs (she worked with a group in TX that trains mobility and hearing dogs) and she HATES stuff like this.

    According to her, ESAs don't have to go through rigorous training or temperament testing to prove that they will be safe in public and most are pets without special training. The designation of ESA refers to the person/patient needing the animal for emotional reasons, not the qualities of the animal itself. Legally, they are not required to be allowed in public places.. I believe the only legal requirement is for landlords/housing, and airline travel and places of employment (with restrictions on safety and the other staff taken into account).

    As far as I know, small dogs and cats are allowed in cabin if in approved carriers that fit under the owner's seat and you have to pay an additional fee to allow them to travel that way. If the animal and carrier don't fit under the seat, they have to fly in cargo in an approved carrier and this prevents larger dogs from being in cabin just due to size.

    IMO a good way for airlines to crack down on this is to require any ESA owner having an ESA (even a small one) outside of a carrier to carry and show proof of liability insurance on the animal in the case of a bite. Liability for animal bites is expensive and I'm sure if someone legitly needed an ESA, they'd pony up the cash for it and if not...that would negate the point of scamming the system to get your animal a free plane ride (it cost around $150 to have your animal fly in cabin I think and insurance would be a lot more than that annually). I'd be all for proof of insurance being required for service dogs as well (that enter public places where dogs aren't allowed). This would cut down on scammers and I'm sure animals trained with legitimate service dogs places would be able to get insurance at a much lower rate. Of course, this could just open up another can of worms in terms of scammers (bogus insurance companies, etc.) but there's a way around everything.
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  12. #19
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    And so it happens again...another bite from an ESA:

    https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/a...rnd/index.html
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  13. #20
    Registered User Annageckos's Avatar
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    ESA are not service animals. They are not covered by the same laws that SA are. There is no training, they don't perform any particular tasks other than having a calming presences for their owner. They do help their people who suffer from different types of anxiety. I believe the laws regarding them are they can not be denied housing, even if the place doesn't allow pets or certain breeds and (for some reason) they are allowed on planes, but not other public transport. You can not take them into places that do not allow animals. The problem is that they are not trained to behave and are not normally exposed to various situations. It sounds like this dog was scared and uncomfortable in the situation. The article says that the 'dog attacked without warning...' but said it growled before that. I'd bet that the dog gave lots of warnings that it was uncomfortable and the owner ignored them. So many people believe that their dogs would never bite, or that they have human logic. I feel bad for the guy that was attacked, I feel bad for the dog that was put into this situation. It is owners like this that give all ESA a bad name. They do a huge service for their people, but most people don't realize what it is they actually do or the laws regarding them.

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