Looking for advice from other breeders

[rufretic]

I have an issue I've been trying to decide what to do with and I thought I'd get the community's opinion.

So last year I got a clutch from a pastel leopard het desert ghost x pastel desert ghost. She gave me 10 eggs and all hatched what seem to be healthy snakes. The issue is they all have short tails. I've come to the conclusion that it is not genetic and that it was some type of incubation issue because every hatchling in this clutch and the one other clutch that was in the incubator at the same time. The two clutches have no relationship.

So now my issue is what to do with the hatchlings that I am not holding back. They are fairly valuable but with a birth defect that does not affect anything but the cosmetic look of having a short tail. They all eat great and show no signs of any other issue. I've raised them for almost a year with no issues. They all pop like normal so I believe they should all be able to be bred but this unknown and what makes things tricky. It isn't genetic so if they can breed successfully, they would have normal babies. I'm keeping g a few to try breeding myself but I definitely don't need or want to keep all 10.

So now the issue, finding them homes. I've thought about giving them away to good homes as pet only but I feel if people know they are 100% het desert ghost, they will end up trying to breed them. So then there is the option of selling them at a discount due to the short tail. What is a fair mark down? I was thinking maybe 75% of the going rate and seeing what kind of interest I get.

It's an odd situation. I've not found any other cases of something like this happening before so I'm just going to have to decide what I think is fair and go from there.

Here is an example of one of the hatchlings so you can see the short tail. It is definitely noticeable but doesn't seem to affect them in any way. The top girl is mine, you can compare her to the Male I purchased below who is not related and a slightly different morph combo.

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[Lord Sorril]

That is a tough one. I would not want to gain a reputation as 'the guy that breeds stub tail ball pythons'.

Since you are certain this is an incubation issue and not a genetic defect - I would lower the price by 20% and never drop my price any lower. Why? Because lower than 20% would make it seem like you are tying to offload defective snakes. People may be more conducive to purchasing them as they grow larger and have a proven track record of health.

Just curious: Did you notice anything odd about the incubation? Did you use vermiculite as a media?

[rufretic]

That is a tough one. I would not want to gain a reputation as 'the guy that breeds stub tail ball pythons'.

Since you are certain this is an incubation issue and not a genetic defect - I would lower the price by 20% and never drop my price any lower. Why? Because lower than 20% would make it seem like you are tying to offload defective snakes. People may be more conducive to purchasing them as they grow larger and have a proven track record of health.

Just curious: Did you notice anything odd about the incubation? Did you use vermiculite as a media?

Thank you for the helpful response, you are pretty much right on with my thoughts.

I had no idea there was any incubation issue. There was 3 clutches in there, the two that were put in within a week of each other both hatched with short tails, the 3rd was about a month later and had all perfect babies. So me and some other breeders I'm friends with came to the conclusion something happened in that first couple weeks of incubation that caused the short tails. I have no idea what could of done it, there is literally no info online about it, at least not that I could find. My one breeder friend actually has a breeder male that has a short tail that is not as severe as mine but noticeably shorter than normal and he's created many clutches with all hatchlings having normal tails so it seems to be the same kind of thing, a non genetic type of defect.

I did use vermiculite but it was from the same bag as all my clutches so far and no other clutches have had this happen. It is pure vermiculite and fertilizer/chemical free.

The only thing we can think of that could be possible is a temp spike. The incubator is controlled by a good brand thermostat, herpstat, so I'm not sure how realistic this theory is but it's really the only thing we can think of. Power outage is possible because I do remember having one but it was such a short period of time, I just don't think it would of been enough to let the temp drop much and I don't see that causing incubation issues. Now if I had a heat spike, we all know too much heat can do damage fairly quickly. It's really our only guess.

[pretends2bnormal]

I don't really have any idea about advice, but I'd be curious how it looks on the underside. I've never seen anything like this before and I'm intrigued. Really pretty snake, regardless.

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[Stewart_Reptiles]

In my experience if you sell them at a discount that is usually where people will take advantage of the cheap price to breed something potentially valuable.

When you give an animal away to someone you know and trust it's different and you do not have to mention they are het's for anything, not like it matters anyway since the person would be getting a pet, they could make a great class pet, first snake for a child (even with a low rehoming fee)

Few years back I rehomed a CG Pied we are talking when they were still pricey and high in demand, the defect was minor (underbite), I knew someone looking for a CG Pied with no intention of breeding and she was happy to get him, would have I sold it at a reduced priced someone would have seen this as a good opportunity to get into a project for cheap and I don't agree in building or breeding animals that are not flawless.

[JodanOrNoDan]

In my experience if you sell them at a discount that is usually where people will take advantage of the cheap price to breed something potentially valuable.

When you give an animal away to someone you know and trust it's different and you do not have to mention they are het's for anything, not like it matters anyway since the person would be getting a pet, they could make a great class pet, first snake for a child (even with a low rehoming fee)

Few years back I rehomed a CG Pied we are talking when they were still pricey and high in demand, the defect was minor (underbite), I knew someone looking for a CG Pied with no intention of breeding and she was happy to get him, would have I sold it at a reduced priced someone would have seen this as a good opportunity to get into a project for cheap and I don't agree in building or breeding animals that are not flawless.

^^^ This ^^^

[rufretic]

In my experience if you sell them at a discount that is usually where people will take advantage of the cheap price to breed something potentially valuable.

When you give an animal away to someone you know and trust it's different and you do not have to mention they are het's for anything, not like it matters anyway since the person would be getting a pet, they could make a great class pet, first snake for a child (even with a low rehoming fee)

Few years back I rehomed a CG Pied we are talking when they were still pricey and high in demand, the defect was minor (underbite), I knew someone looking for a CG Pied with no intention of breeding and she was happy to get him, would have I sold it at a reduced priced someone would have seen this as a good opportunity to get into a project for cheap and I don't agree in building or breeding animals that are not flawless.

I agree with you completely. But when you compare an animal that was hatched with a defect that could be genetic to a situation like mine where the animal has a defect(comparable to something like a scar or cut off tail) I believe it's much different when considering breeding the two. I absolutely disagree with breeding animals with genetic defects but I would not see anything wrong with someone breeding an animal with a cosmetic flaw that could not be passed down.

So now I'm at the point at which I need to decide, is it better to give them to homes where there is no chance of breeding just to avoid the people trying to get into a valuable project for cheap and potentially hurting the market value which is unlikely on such a small scale but I guess it has to start somewhere. Or sell them at near the regular value where most likely I will be unable to move them because if someone can buy the same animal at near the same price without the flaw, why wouldn't they.

This may be a case where I keep the animals I can use in my own projects and find good pet homes or my close friends who may be able to use them for their own projects and just avoid introducing them to the open market.

I hate to take a loss on such nice animals but I certainly don't want to do anything unethical or something that could potentially hurt the market for desert ghost because as of right now they have been holding their value excellently and it is my number one project. Imo the worst thing I can do is put them in someone's hands that doesn't want to invest and just trying to make a quick buck.

I guess for now I will continue to care for them as my own and keep them off the market.

Thank you for everyone's input.

[Ax01]

very good discussion and advice all around. you have a couple very good options. Ruf, u also have a Killer Leopard DG w/ the same cosmetic flaw that u plan on breeding at some point. if that's good to go, so should the rest of the clutch(es) if u decide to sell (albeit discounted).

[rufretic]

very good discussion and advice all around. you have a couple very good options. Ruf, u also have a Killer Leopard DG w/ the same cosmetic flaw that u plan on breeding at some point. if that's good to go, so should the rest of the clutch(es) if u decide to sell (albeit discounted).

True and this also brings up another good point, if I hold on to them and breed them myself, as long as all goes as planned and they produce healthy clutches with no short tails, then at that point they will be proven breedable and non genetic so I would feel much more comfortable selling them as proven breeders. They would also hold the same value as any other breeder of the same morphs so I would be able to sell them for what they are worth and be confident with my pricing. They really don't have value to someone that is not looking to breed because I only want to sell the hets. So basically they will only hold their true value as proven breeders.

[Danger noodles]

I know ur not but of u decided to unload one of them I’d be happy to take one and never breed it. Lol

seriously though I think he is so cute! That’s something I’d be drawn to since people normally want perfect animals, I don’t mind a few defects as I don’t breed.