Question for those who you barren tubs

[bns]

...I don't think large and well decorated enclosures are universally better. ...

I couldn't agree more and I'm 100% confident that a newspaper lined tote with a water bowl is also less than ideal.

It sounds like you put effort into observations...kudos to you and your critters.

[Tila]

While I agree that this conversation is a valid one that should continue, I have reservations about the OP's approach and methodology. This is way too large of a conversation to be had without qualifiers in place, such as species. The studies should pertain to the species at hand. The counter points should be considered and spoken to. Admission of areas of weakness in existing bodies of research should be brought to light and examined, such as how we interpret reptile behavior. Having a bias and admiting it is helpful so that others may interpret what you are bringing to the table through a more complete lens.

I am concerned that although you may have wanted to use studies and Youtube videos to propose a shift in animal husbandry to the masses, those that may well benefit from your points may shy away from this discussion based on your delivery and incorrect use of evidence. For what it is worth, scientific studies make up a vast body of information, and if you look hard enough (and it exists, etc.) you can hand-pick and back up a point most points, but doing so poses a real risk to the communities we aim to serve. Look at American "healthy/unhealthy" food recommendations across time if you need a concrete example of this.

Invite people into a discussion to help build the community (which also allows room for dissent) and please use data correctly by not extropolating beyond obvious limitations. Thank you for considering.

[Jmarshall]

I'm happy to keep snakes in tanks and terrariums when I know they do well in them,,.

I’m glad you give your snakes the option of living in the biggest enclosure possible, that they feel comfortable in.

And again.. I believe I have stated 4 or 5 times that there is nothing wrong with tubs or racks! Lol. I have a problem when they are much too small for the animal and have no enrichment.. hides, cover, a small branch or whatever else.

I heard the comment “the entire rack acts as a hide”. What about what the snake wants to leave the hide then? It can’t.

I’m my eyes.. having actual substrate, room to move around, things to crawl over, places to actually hide etc.. takes a tiny bit more work, and can be nothing but beneficial to the snake. It is unfortunate when that decision is made for our own convenience.

I simply presented the material to the group, I happen to agree with a lot of it, and noted there are studies of animals (who’s brain are similar and I would presume work in a similar way) that benefit from enrichment in a very serious way.

Take from it what you will.



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[TechnoCheese]

I am very new to this forum, so I really do hope I’m not I’m not intruding by posting my opinion on this subject before I even have a ball python, lol.

I moderate a reptile site that has very high standards when it comes to reptile care. Our minimum for snakes is an enclosure no shorter than the length of the snake, so that it is able to stretch out. Enrichment is a very large deal, and small , sterile tubs are only ever used for quarantine. The enclosures seen are often very large, extremely cluttered, and offer the python many places to feel secure.

Members who follow this standard report active ball pythons that climb and explore, and rarely miss a meal. They do more than just “hide, eat, and shed”, and really do appear to thrive in their surroundings.

My personal opinion on this subject is that it is inhumane to put a snake in these conditions. The way I see it, preforming basic functions is not thriving. Curling up in a corner for eternity definitely isn’t. Based on what I have seen from the ball pythons on that site, I strongly believe that they can benefit from the enrichment, and really do survive in their environment.

A tub does not have to be small or barren. Heck, my quarantine enclosure is a basic example of this, and my post quarantine enclosure is even better one. It’s a 50 gallon tub that I will be putting doors on the front of, and it has probably cost me less than 100$ to set up.

Lots of people will say it’s fine because the pythons are breeders, or that there’s no way to have a large collection without keeping snakes in small tubs with nothing but a water bowl. But shouldn’t breeding pythons be getting better care than pets because of the stress they have to endure? Should people really be keeping large amounts of snakes if they can only keep each one in tiny tubs with nothing but a bowl of water?

I might be too ambitious, posting this on my second ever thread before I’ve even gotten a snake, but I do love a good debate


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[the_rotten1]

I’m my eyes.. having actual substrate, room to move around, things to crawl over, places to actually hide etc.. takes a tiny bit more work, and can be nothing but beneficial to the snake.

You would think so, but it's all a matter of how much room you're talking about. From what I've seen, the amount of space in the enclosure and the openness of it make more of a difference than whether or not there are hides and decorations. I've seen big improvements in some of my ball pythons after going from glass enclosures to a rack with a similar floor size (not much of a difference in other species though), and even a slight improvement going from open racks to ones that have covered sides. The presence or absence of decor doesn't seem to make much of a difference either way, but as far as hides go, some snakes don't use them in a rack. They all use them in a glass tank or terrarium.

So I don't think the tub as a hide thing is wrong. I've seen a lot of my snakes come out of their hides more often and be more active in a rack. It provides them with more cover and I think they come out more because they feel less exposed. Just for reference, my policy is to provide hides as long as my snakes use them. If they don't, then I'll take any unused hides out to give them more space to roam.

If you haven't tried both enclosure types then I don't think you don't have a horse in this race. You have no basis for comparison. It's easy to look at a large, attractive enclosure and make assumptions, but to give your snakes options and observe their behavior takes a bit of work. So I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe there is a one size-fits all approach. Snakes are individuals. They may not think like humans, but they have different personalities and different needs. Some need more security than others.

And just FYI, accusing people of animal abuse isn't going to help your cause. I'm sure you care about your snake, and maybe you really think you're fighting to get them all "better" housing, but attacking the character of everyone who keeps them in a way that you dislike isn't going to get them to listen to you. I can think my way of keeping them is superior to yours without accusing you of abuse. I expect the same in return.

@TechnoCheese
Not matter how kindly you put it, you have never owned a snake and you are judging people who do. Some who have decades of experience with them. What do you suppose that says about your character?

[TechnoCheese]

@TechnoCheese
Not matter how kindly you put it, you have never owned a snake and you are judging people who do. Some who have decades of experience with them. What do you suppose that says about your character?

Very true. I figured if anything, it’ll bump up the thread and cause more discussion, lol



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[dr del]

Hi,

I think a lot of it comes down to consider what the animal involved considers enrichment. There are a lot of different interpretations of what it involves and how the animal regards it.

On the most simplistic level we see a tub with a paper substrate - but to a python that is a hide that they can move around under to any of the available temperature zones without leaving the feeling of security provided by a dark low hide.

But this varies animal by animal - some love to climb when the opportunity is provided ( most of them fall off when they get larger ) but this needn't cause injury or stress if you plan it well.

It's one of those areas where you offer the animal the choices you think it might like and discard those it does not choose to interact with. We cannot ( whatever we hope ) replicate the open African savanah in an enclosed space so we try things to see if they are acceptable to the snake in question.


dr del