Question for those who you barren tubs

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Okay. Me asking others for their opinions and sharing mine is not judging anyone. Just because something is the way it is and works, doesn't make it ideal or optimum. I believe the purpose of enrichment is giving the animal choice. Again, the information that I provided suggests that an animal eating, shedding, and breeding is not thriving but surviving. I post some information that was put together by an animal welfare scientist with numerous studies and it gets shot down (possibly without even reading very much of it) because breeders have been successful. I bring up a conversation starter to get other peoples OPINIONS. Thank you for sharing yours.

I did not say you were the article is, and it starts by telling people what they should do and I am a firm believer that if it's not broken don't fix it, in other words don't change things because someone tells you to regardless of how you keep your snakes so long it works, in this articles it implies that you should provide enrichment and failure to do so means the animal "just survives" and does not thrive, further in the article it even mentions the impact of enrichment on health and stress, again enriched environment vs bare tub and water bowl when keeping Ball Pythons (again not debating other reptiles where the article actually make good pointa) is all the same one is not superior to the other and both can result in the same benefits or issues.

[Jmarshall]

So maybe, this post would have been more appropriate under the general tab.. because to your point the studies done are on other snakes as well as other reptiles. I included it under the BP section because that is where you see a lot of the very small tubs with no additions. Also, I would like to reiterate you mentioned tubs and animal cruelty... Myself as well as the source mentioned tubs being great for keeping reptiles. Tubs allow for a very stable condition..

Can I ask you an honest question? Would you keep your animal in the same exact set up if you only had 1 and did not breed? Or would you try and provide more for your 1 reptile? Even though they may not require more to eat shed poop and breed?

Also, I believe the link is just talking about the benefits of environmental enrichment and it mentions that adequate enclosure size is a part of it. Speaking of your "not broke don't fix".. Slavery and a ton of extremely unethical things existed for a very long time.. and none of that would have been fixed unless people started talking about it.. Now i'm NOT equating keeping reptiles in bare enclosures to slavery.. Just saying that the status quo isn't always ethically right.

[Lord Sorril]

Now i'm NOT equating keeping reptiles in bare enclosures to slavery.. Just saying that the status quo isn't always ethically right.

No mention of rodents (mice/rats) in empty tubs? Next thread maybe?

[Jmarshall]

No mention of rodents (mice/rats) in empty tubs? Next thread maybe?

You going to add anything useful? Lol

[Lord Sorril]

You going to add anything useful? Lol

Just making a suggestion. Rats are known for their intelligence and emotions yet they are bred in empty bins. Thought you might want to make another thread on the topic...

[Jmarshall]

Just making a suggestion. Rats are known for their intelligence and emotions yet they are bred in empty bins. Thought you might want to make another thread on the topic...

Looks like you got that one covered. Hurry and publish it, i'll meet you there.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Can I ask you an honest question? Would you keep your animal in the same exact set up if you only had 1 and did not breed? Or would you try and provide more for your 1 reptile? Even though they may not more to eat shed poop and breed?

Yes been there done that already, while I have kept BP for 13 years for breeding purposes I have 20+ years experience keeping reptiles (back than that was one or two at the time), I used to rescue iguanas (which are likely the most poorly kept reptile in the industry), so I am familiar with enrichment, tub, bioactive setup,large enclosure etc, it agsin all depends on the species you keep, lizards are very intelligent and greatly benefit from enrichment and bioactive/natural and large setup well at least large enough to accommodate their size.

In about 10 to 15 years when I will retire from breeding the snakes I will keep (handful of BP, and a handful of misc snake species) will remain in tubs it has work for 13 years and will still work than, again the key is that the needs of the species are met.

The geckos I keep will remain in naturalistic environment and I believe both snakes and geckos will have the same quality of life.

[Godzilla78]

In many species , yes, they need space to explore, or maybe even socialize.
Ball pythons however are unique in that they love to hide in a dark, secure place 98% of the time.
They DO like to explore, and I think it’s healthy for them to get out and slither around sometimes, but let’s face reality, even when you take them out, what do they do? THEY GO HIDE!!!
Hence, racks are great. Anything else is basically unnecessary as they will hide all day anyway.
There is nothing wrong with a giant bioactive enclosure, but they will mostly just stay in their hides as if they were in a rack.

Now with OTHER reptiles, then this need for enrichment may apply, but I don’t know because I only keep Royals.


https://www.morphmarket.com/stores/kaos-balls/

[bns]

I dont think the problem is racks.. If the animal has plenty of space within the tub, and enrichment in the tub.. Hides, coverage, substrate etc I see them on par with each other. I think the problem lays with plain tubs with just a water dish.. I know racks are the only option for certain individuals..

Okay. Me asking others for their opinions and sharing mine is not judging anyone. Just because something is the way it is and works, doesn't make it ideal or optimum. I believe the purpose of enrichment is giving the animal choice. Again, the information that I provided suggests that an animal eating, shedding, and breeding is not thriving but surviving. I post some information that was put together by an animal welfare scientist with numerous studies and it gets shot down (possibly without even reading very much of it) because breeders have been successful. I bring up a conversation starter to get other peoples OPINIONS. Thank you for sharing yours.

Jmarshall, congratulations to you! You are absolutely correct about eating/shedding/breeding is not thriving. Those are basic life functions and anything kept at the minimal standards will attempt to perform those basic life functions.

I started keeping reptiles in the '70's and it has been my experience that some people have more than a basic concern for reptiles as pets and some have an ability to see the fine details. The fine details are visible to those that look...those fine details are observing the habits of captive reptiles and understanding what is being observed. There is a hellavalot more to a critter performing basic life functions and a critter that is secure in its environment.

Observing how a boa (or other snake rests) is very telling. Hugging the water bowl, tightly coiled in the corner, head hiding between coils...these are not the signs of a secure critter and this behavior is most often seen on slick substrates.

Your critters have the answers...keep your mind open and observe.

[Jmarshall]

In many species , yes, they need space to explore, or maybe even socialize.
Ball pythons however are unique in that they love to hide in a dark, secure place 98% of the time.
They DO like to explore, and I think it’s healthy for them to get out and slither around sometimes, but let’s face reality, even when you take them out, what do they do? THEY GO HIDE!!!
Hence, racks are great. Anything else is basically unnecessary as they will hide all day anyway.
There is nothing wrong with a giant bioactive enclosure, but they will mostly just stay in their hides as if they were in a rack.

Now with OTHER reptiles, then this need for enrichment may apply, but I don’t know because I only keep Royals.


https://www.morphmarket.com/stores/kaos-balls/

I guess I really like the idea of the animal having the CHOICE to explore, hunt or hide. Even if it’s only 2% of the time. Lol


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