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  1. #21
    Registered User Treeman's Avatar
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    Quote Originally Posted by MasonC2K View Post
    My short thought on this: As he says, it should be up to the breeder and the industry to police itself.

    Long thoughts: I have a Spider. When I bred I had no problem breeding it. As long as it's taken care of properly they is no harm. How many dog and cat breeds have inherent genetic issues? Take the American Bulldog, A female physically cannot give birth. All births are by C-section. It's not stopping people from breeding or buying them.

    Great Danes have super short lifespans for a dog and usually have joint problems.

    I could go on and on.

    Point is, this could become a government thing. And it shouldn't.
    But that's just the thing. Its a genetic defect. Great care, great husbandry, and great feeding doesn't fix genetic neurologic problems. I don't think it should become a government thing, as you said, I agree that the hobby and its breeders should do the responsible thing, whatever that person thinks that is, after studying the possible defects of a spider.

  2. #22
    Registered User Danger noodles's Avatar
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    Lots of hater of Brian for being enthusiastic, if only more people were so passionate about there life and job this would be a better world to live in. He does not drink or do drugs and people still hate on him all the time. I donít get it

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  4. #23
    Registered User MR Snakes's Avatar
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Danger noodles View Post
    Lots of hater of Brian for being enthusiastic, if only more people were so passionate about there life and job this would be a better world to live in. He does not drink or do drugs and people still hate on him all the time. I donít get it
    It's because their heads are mostly hollow. Brian's a good guy.

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  6. #24
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnieskys View Post
    Brian doesn't drink coffee or drink FYI lol.

    I agree with brian that it should be up to the breeders. Most spiders are totally ok and live fine. Would I breed them..no.
    This is the interesting part about spiders. For you itís perfectly fine to breed a snake with a known neurological defect but would u breed them,nope. It doesnít make sense to me.

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  8. #25
    Registered User Treeman's Avatar
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    Quote Originally Posted by DandD View Post
    This is the interesting part about spiders. For you itís perfectly fine to breed a snake with a known neurological defect but would u breed them,nope. It doesnít make sense to me.
    There's lots of things I think are fine to breed, but wouldn't want to breed myself! And that's for various reasons. Like tarantulas or scorpions for example. I think they're very neat and interesting, I enjoy looking at them for short periods of time, but I wouldn't want to breed them myself, because my interest in them doesn't go beyond looking at them through glass for a few minutes at a time, and definitely not into keeping them as a pet, let alone trying to handle and breed them. This doesn't mean I would discourage anyone else from breeding them, as there are plenty of people that enjoy them and will care for them. I think the reason many people have said that they are OK with others breeding spider Ball pythons but not they would not do it themselves is the feeling of responsibility. Do I think spider bp's are cool and good looking? Yes. But do I want to have to deal with responsibility of breeding a snake with increased risk of neurological defect if something goes wrong? Nope. I'd rather breed a different morph so I have a lower risk of having to see snakes do what we see on those videos, and a lower risk of having to make the decision to euthanize if something does go wrong. Of course, issues requiring the animals having to be euthanized can happen in all animal species.

    And that's the decision a breeder has to make, if they want that responsibility. If they are willing to take it on, sure. But that's not something everyone wants to do knowing these risks.

    So that's what I think it comes down to for a lot of people on here, and at least it does for me. The responsibility of having bred spider BP's, and ending up with one or more with neurological defects. Knowing what we know now, I would hate to breed this morph only to see one of these babies demonstrating this issue.

    Hope that made sense to everyone.

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  10. #26
    BPnet Veteran the_rotten1's Avatar
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    What pisses me off about this tired old argument is all the misinformation going around. A lot of the people opposed to the spider gene don't really understand what the wobble is or how it works. They act as though it is always detrimental to the health of the snake when it isn't. They don't seem aware that it gets better or worse depending on stress and the conditions the snake is kept in. They don't even seem to understand why the wobble exists.

    I got into a discussion with an idiot who insisted that the wobble is due to inbreeding because "naturally produced genes shouldn't have wobble". Spider is a natrually occurring morph, whether he thinks it should be or not. And people state that spiders couldn't survive in the wild, but the first spider was taken from the wild. It survived. It's viable. And the fact that it survived in the wild should be enough proof for these morons that spiders can thrive.

    So many people whine about the welfare of the animals and preach about how we can't know whether or not they're in pain, but rather than listen to the people who spend the most time with them (breeders) and know the most about them, they would prefer to wipe the gene out of existence. I don't know how you can claim to want to better the welfare of an animal by wiping it off the face of the earth.

    Also it is really hypocritical to ban one wobble gene and not all of them. When Brian talks about a slippery slope, it would be just as easy to ban champagne, woma, and HGW for the wobble. Yet everyone focuses on the spider. Why? Probably because the spider gets more bad press than the others. What's next? Bans on super cinnys? Caramel albinos? Desserts? The last two are already going out of style because of their issues.

    Why can't people just mind their own business? Rant over.
    ~ Ball Pythons - Rosy Boas - - Western Hognose Snakes - Mexican Black Kingsnakes - Corn Snakes ~

    Check me out on iHerp, Instagram, & visit my store!


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  12. #27
    Registered User royalreilly's Avatar
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    There is misinformation on both sides. I personally think the amount of people claiming that the UK government itself is the one to blame when it was actually just shows sponsored by the IHS is proof of that.

    I personally am against the breeding of all ball pythons that have known defects. People focus on spider because it is very common, it is used in a lot of different morphs, and it is probably the most well known of the morphs with defects. I personally wish there was MORE info about morphs with defects. This info is not spread around as much as it should be, which is probably why not a lot of people are talking about it or are only talking about spiders. When I got my first ball python I didn't even KNOW that there are certain morphs that have genetic defects. Luckily I didn't buy one of those snakes, because I wouldn't have even realized. Sadly, this information is not passed on to new keepers very often. Imagine going to a chain pet store like petco or petsmart to get your first snake, as many people do. What are the chances the employees will know about the spider wobble and warn you? Even some experienced keepers don't know that these things exist.

    I care a lot about all animals. It's simple. I wouldn't buy a dog like a pug that has trouble breathing because of its genetics, I wouldn't buy a cat like a Scottish fold that has problems with cartilage and bone development because of its genetics, and I wouldn't buy a ball python that has a wobble because of its genetics. These animals are bred purely for human enjoyment. I do not agree with breeding animals that have the potential to suffer because of their genetics when other, healthier animals are an option.

    I'm not shouting "Ban! Ban! Ban!" and I respect the other side, but if you're wondering why people focus on spider... It's because they're everywhere. People aren't trying to kill off such a pretty gene and be monsters and ruin the hobby, they're just concerned about ethics. (And what do you mean by, "Why can't people just mind their own business?" As hobbyists and as ball python keepers, this very much is our business. If it's not our business, then what qualifies you to talk about it either? Should no one be talking about it at all? Lol.)

    Here is a list of morphs / combos with defects that I don't support: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php



    Also just a side note: I don't think all breeders are automatically trustworthy just because they spend so much time with snakes. Most big breeders just have them stuffed in low-stimulation bins. There are breeders who lie to customers, sell sick animals, etc. Many breeders are so focused on profit that they feel no remorse breeding animals that suffer. Brian B. shows off his spiders that barely wobble, but with him breeding 1000's of snakes, wouldn't you think he's bred some bad ones too? He doesn't show the ones that are truly affected by the gene because he doesn't want to look bad. He plays it off as something that isn't serious, when it is. Breeders are not all-knowing, infallible snake gods.


    ***I don't want to start a war! Just explaining my personal opinion. I respect all sides in this situation

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  14. #28
    BPnet Veteran pretends2bnormal's Avatar
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    Quote Originally Posted by royalreilly View Post
    Even some experienced keepers don't know that these things exist.

    I care a lot about all animals. It's simple. I wouldn't buy
    Here is a list of morphs / combos with defects that I don't support: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php
    Honestly, I'm not sure I can agree with your statement about experienced keepers not being aware. I suppose it depends on your definition, but I don't personally count the person with a single PetSmart ball python that is kept with incorrect husbandry due to ignorance as experienced even if the snake is still alive 7 years later. That person may never know about morph issues, but serious keepers who research I think would be hard pressed to avoid finding out about it. There are dozens of posts on all the forums I've seen talking about it and many articles about the awful-ness of spider BPs. Reddit is extremely against it and spider wobble is brought up, often in the first 3 posts, of a newbie asking what morph they should get or for ideas of cool lower cost morphs/combos. Facebook is probably similar, though I've never gone near the BP groups on there.

    My 2nd snake was a spider ball python and within the first day I spent researching care before I went to get one, I came across spider wobble in several places (none related to the outcry against them, funny enough.. mostly just pages on forums asking if their snake is sick from someone who didn't know and had done no research on husbabdry). Very quickly that exact link was posted and I could see all of the problem morphs.

    Now that I've had him, I noticed something interesting about the wobble, at least for him. He has minimal issue on flat surface (only during high excitement live feeds which was all he accepted at first. Now he eats frozen just fine with no excitement wobble at all). Moves exactly like my other BPs. It only becomes evident when you pick him up, and his manifests as the apparent inability to stay upright... but it has the consistency that he orients his head ALWAYS to be upright compared to the surface he is on. If he is on your arm, as he moves around it in a circle, he is very good at keeping his head upright if the arm was center of gravity. Kind of an interesting thing, makes me wonder if that is the cause. Something related to the gravity-detection part of the brain.

    He is not a no-wobble spider, but he is far from severe or one that I would question the quality of life.

    I don't think bans are the answer from a government authority. All that will do, in my opinion, is remove any competition for backyard breeders who are now the ONLY source of the "cool" morph combos with spiders. And those breeders will not care about wobble or attempting to minimize it.

    Plenty of less ethical people will still want and buy them from that kind of place and all it will do is make lives worse for the snakes being bred. When there are more quality sources that do produce ones without wobble or minimal wobble with good reputation, people will prefer that over a no-name breeder and creates lower demand from backyard breeders. Some will always suffer from someone's ignorance or stupidity, but I think banning would increase the scale of that suffering.

    Olympus Reptiles appears to be doing a good job breeding spiders with no noticeable wobble (and since he shows all the babies of his clutches, I feel good that he isn't hiding anything). I do think there is something to the ability to breed for low wobble, I think it hasn't been isolated well yet.

    For the same reasons, I would not support bans for dog breeds. It will only have the same results, in my opinion.

    Just my thoughts. I do think that people overestimate how many spiders have the severe wobble like the ones posted on YouTube of awful issues. For every video there are dozens of posts from people who own one that say theirs is nowhere near that bad and is living very well. (As much as I don't support needlessly killing animals, ones that display severe wobble like that should have been culled if it displayed like that as babies, regardless how valuable their genetics are.)

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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  16. #29
    Sometimes It Hurts... PitOnTheProwl's Avatar
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    I am always entertained by these debates.....
    So many people don't really know anything about what a wobble is but they have youtubed extreme corkscrewers and are now an expert and against the morph.
    The only difference is this is a KNOWN issue.
    You can have a defect any time there is a breeding project.
    Hell, I have had a couple kinked NORMALS.
    Should you breed any that are really bad? I wouldn't.
    Same people probably don't have any problems with people continually reproducing multiple times.....

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  18. #30
    Registered User Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    Quote Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl View Post
    ...Same people probably don't have any problems with people continually reproducing multiple times.....
    You know what happens when you 'assume'....

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