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  1. #41
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    But how can the reptile hobby police itself? To "police" means there is some effective method by which the activities of the participants can be controlled.

    Allow me to cite what I feel to be an example of a hobby effectively policing itself:

    My other hobby is to fly RC aircraft. In the US we have an national organization, the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics), that effectively polices the hobby. RC pilots need large maintained runways and open areas to fly and practice the hobby. These spaces are at a premium as most optimal sites are athletic fields. The AMA provides assistance for local clubs to have exclusive access to flying sites. The catch is only AMA members who abide by the rules can fly those locations. Here in Mass, you pretty much can't fly RC unless you are an AMA member. But if you are a member, you can be assured of always having priority access to a flying field. If you're a trouble maker, bad neighbor, or otherwise cast shade on the hobby or its practice, you can be effectively policed by the AMA. I've never heard of it happening , but it is possible to be kicked out and pretty much lose the ability to fly RC.

    The reptile hobby has no such controlling organization, so to speak of the reptile keeping/breeding hobby as policing itself makes no sense.

    From what I see, the prevailing attitude is that some may not approve of breeding the spider gene, but feel that the market should decide. The problem is that, as we all know, there are always a few bad apples that care more about a fast buck than the welfare of the animal(s).

    So to say that the market should decide or that the hobby should police itself, seems like a long way of saying we should do nothing.

    And maybe we should do nothing. Maybe there is actually nothing that we can do beyond simply try to do what we feel is right in our own lives.
    \m/

  2. #42
    Registered User Treeman's Avatar
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    What Brian means by the hobby policing itself is relying on its members to distinguish whatís right vs whats wrong to do. Like breeding spiders that are healthy and minimal/ no visible defects. One example is if a person with no experience or knowledge wanted to buy a retic from a breeder. The breeder would have no requirement to explain that these snakes get to a very large size and are not a good beginner snake, but should do so to ensure the best care possible for their snake, maintain a healthy business and a healthy, respected reptile community. He is saying there doesnít need to be an outside governemt policing our hobby, we should do it internally.


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  3. #43
    bcr229's Avatar
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    To some extend there is internal policing. In some cases it happens for economic reasons, with others it's for moral reasons.

    Example: Desert ball python. If you look around you can find them for sale but there are not many, and they are super cheap due to the fertility problems with the females.

    Example: Super motley boa. Put one up for sale in a Facebook classified group and you will get ripped to shreds in the comments, and Lord help you if you admit to pairing critters where you might produce one.

    In neither of these instances do I see a reason for government involvement. The government already has plenty on its plate with investigating abuse and neglect, and unfortunately most animal control officials are just clueless when it comes to exotics. At the federal level it has to deal with invasive species, plus threatened or endangered species, investigate smugglers, etc.

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  5. #44
    BPnet Lifer zina10's Avatar
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    Good points have already been made.

    I've heard about / seen quite a few neurological issues in Ball Pythons, cork screwing and others, that have nothing to do with spider genes. As a matter of fact, the first question asked is usually whether there is spider in the snake and it wasn't the case with those. Something happened to those snakes husbandry wise, either before the sale, or after. Usually owned by a beginning snake keeper that bought a snake with a issue, or caused it.

    Spiders are very common nowadays, as they have become very affordable and are quite pretty.
    I've owned one (Bumblebee) had a couple of hatchlings and have seen or heard about countless others that were/are perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, usually GREAT eaters, growing fast and healthy, great pets, too. I would say that easily 95% of all of them grow and live perfectly fine, given they have the right husbandry and no undue stress.

    So then we have the few terrible examples. Usually, those are the easiest found on youtube or when spider issues are discussed.

    Given that there are so many spiders and that neurological issues can also be caused by environmental issues, husbandry etc, I have to wonder, just HOW many of those spiders with extreme neurological issues might have actually have had them caused by other factors? Or made worse by them?

    As common as spiders are, that is definitely not out of the realm of possible.

    Its so easy for some to point fingers. Yet, there are definitely other genetic factors that can cause issues, but those issues aren't as visually disturbing. We already know albinism can cause eye problems. In many species and not just reptiles. It also causes extreme light sensitivity. Many animals (humans incl.) have lids, we close our eyes if light hurts us. Snakes cannot do it.
    Yet, if it doesn't move a bit funny, we aren't worried about it ? Even though THOSE issues may actually cause a snake more discomfort, then a wobble may.

    And then again, even perfectly normal animals, meaning wild type, can and will have some issues. They just aren't always noticeable to us.

    So no, spiders don't bother me.

    Breeding genetics that can cause bad kinks or issues that make it difficult for a snake to thrive are another matter. There are supers which are lethal.

    And yes, the hobby does police itself. Animals with severe issues just don't sell well. They don't thrive, grow or breed. And no breeder enjoys culling animals. And sorry, you will not get filthy rich off of breeding snakes. Esp. if you get a bad reputation. I doubt any breeders breed spiders because they want to get rich off the suffering of an animal.

    If you think its a great idea for the government to step in and start telling you what is ethical or not, just beware. Its all fun and games when it doesn't really affect you directly. But the day may come when it does. Because if you start to nitpick like this, it can quickly snowball. Today its a spider, tomorrow its anything with a possible issue, and then we have any genetic anomaly, which is any morph.

    And while we are at it, also cruel to house them in a home, so why not get rid of them altogether.

    Spiders are far from the image of a all suffering freak of nature that is exploited by humans for gain. Most are perfectly fine, actually many seem to do exceptionally well. All mine were the best eaters, fastest growers, least shy, GREAT pets. And I've heard others notice the same. Whether there is something to this or not, fact remains. There are many, many spider morphs out there doing well and being treasured by their owners.

    just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by zina10; 02-11-2019 at 03:21 PM.
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  7. #45
    Registered User pretends2bnormal's Avatar
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    Quote Originally Posted by zina10 View Post
    Good points have already been made.

    I've heard about / seen quite a few neurological issues in Ball Pythons, cork screwing and others, that have nothing to do with spider genes. As a matter of fact, the first question asked is usually whether there is spider in the snake and it wasn't the case with those. Something happened to those snakes husbandry wise, either before the sale, or after. Usually owned by a beginning snake keeper that bought a snake with a issue, or caused it.

    Spiders are very common nowadays, as they have become very affordable and are quite pretty.
    I've owned one (Bumblebee) had a couple of hatchlings and have seen or heard about countless others that were/are perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, usually GREAT eaters, growing fast and healthy, great pets, too. I would say that easily 95% of all of them grow and live perfectly fine, given they have the right husbandry and no undue stress.

    So then we have the few terrible examples. Usually, those are the easiest found on youtube or when spider issues are discussed.

    Given that there are so many spiders and that neurological issues can also be caused by environmental issues, husbandry etc, I have to wonder, just HOW many of those spiders with extreme neurological issues might have actually have had them caused by other factors? Or made worse by them?

    As common as spiders are, that is definitely not out of the realm of possible.

    Its so easy for some to point fingers. Yet, there are definitely other genetic factors that can cause issues, but those issues aren't as visually disturbing. We already know albinism can cause eye problems. In many species and not just reptiles. It also causes extreme light sensitivity. Many animals (humans incl.) have lids, we close our eyes if light hurts us. Snakes cannot do it.
    Yet, if it doesn't move a bit funny, we aren't worried about it ? Even though THOSE issues may actually cause a snake more discomfort, then a wobble may.

    And then again, even perfectly normal animals, meaning wild type, can and will have some issues. They just aren't always noticeable to us.

    So no, spiders don't bother me.

    Breeding genetics that can cause bad kinks or issues that make it difficult for a snake to thrive are another matter. There are supers which are lethal.

    And yes, the hobby does police itself. Animals with severe issues just don't sell well. They don't thrive, grow or breed. And no breeder enjoys culling animals. And sorry, you will not get filthy rich off of breeding snakes. Esp. if you get a bad reputation. I doubt any breeders breed spiders because they want to get rich off the suffering of an animal.

    If you think its a great idea for the government to step in and start telling you what is ethical or not, just beware. Its all fun and games when it doesn't really affect you directly. But the day may come when it does. Because if you start to nitpick like this, it can quickly snowball. Today its a spider, tomorrow its anything with a possible issue, and then we have any genetic anomaly, which is any morph.

    And while we are at it, also cruel to house them in a home, so why not get rid of them altogether.

    Spiders are far from the image of a all suffering freak of nature that is exploited by humans for gain. Most are perfectly fine, actually many seem to do exceptionally well. All mine were the best eaters, fastest growers, least shy, GREAT pets. And I've heard others notice the same. Whether there is something to this or not, fact remains. There are many, many spider morphs out there doing well and being treasured by their owners.

    just my 2 cents.
    Agree 100%. Well put.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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  9. #46
    BPnet Veteran Godzilla78's Avatar
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    Re: So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

    I recently bought out a breeders collection as he was quitting the biz. Among them were 2 spider combos and I was pleasantly surprised to see them behaving perfectly normal with no noticeable differences.
    Iím sure when they are stressed, they might show something, but these are breeder aged spiders and they seem totally cool.
    Kind of helped my perception to own some first hand.


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