F-10 not the be-all and end-all for disinfection?

[zina10]

I always thought my F-10 would pretty much cover everything, disinfectant wise.

However, I just got done reading about some peoples dealings with Crypto in their collections. Has wiped out a couple of collections and animals were sold from infected collections. Just a real mess.

It was mentioned how difficult it is to kill the Crypto protozoan. Regular disinfection doesn't work. Bleach doesn't work. F-10 is not effective. A very high percentage of Hydrogen Peroxide "should" do it, not the typical 3% though, and not 100% for sure according to my research. Ammonia in a high percentage might do the trick, but again, not 100% sure. Steam should kill it, but you would have to have the hot steam in contact with every bit of every surface for quite a few minutes.

Seems to me the best thing would be to chuck everything !!!

Not trying to fear monger, but I do know people buy used cages, racks, etc. I considered buying a used cage that isn't manufactured anymore and I was hoping to come across one. But now I'll pass. If bleaching the heck out of it isn't even a guarantee, then I rather not.

So if anyone is considering used equipment, please do your research on wiping out any nasties that may come along with it, some are very, very difficult to clean and will wipe out your collection if they infect your animals.

And always perform strict quarantine. KNOW the symptoms of the "biggies". Be careful whom you buy from. That said, I have heard about a rather well received breeder having had NIDO in his collection and NOT letting people know about it until it all came out. Neither of the scares I read about had to do with Ball Python breeders, but that means nothing.

Just be aware of what can be out there and do your best to be pro active. Its heart breaking to loose loved animals to something preventable..

[pretends2bnormal]

Wow, I thought one of the disinfectants did work on all the big-bads, or at least crypto?, but can't remember what or where I may have seen that (or if it was a reputable source). Yikes. Definitely not going the used route anymore.

Would anyone be willing to list the commonly spotted symptoms and progression rate for crypto, IBD, etc.? Or links to a reputable source with that info?

I think it may help a lot of newer folks to have it all in one place, especially with such a valid warning as this about what is proven not to be effective.

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[Stewart_Reptiles]

Sadly there has never been any fool proof disinfectant and with some animals even 6 months quarantine do not mean much unless you get your animals tested.

Sadly with the high number of people always looking for cheap deal picking up animals from Craigslist as foundation for their future project epidemics are not about to stop any time soon, same with people having a collection sales.

There also has always been the dirty little secrets and cover ups in this industry people hiding the fact that animals are dying off and do business as usual, the latest cover up of a big breeder selling infected animals for likely as long as 2 years is impacting the hognose industry.

[bcr229]

Unfortunately after dealing with crypto I found this out the hard way. You can disinfect used enclosures that are contaminated with it, but doing so is incredibly difficult and frankly using strong ammonia isn't something you'd want to do in your house.

I took the cages outside, used 100% ammonia in a spray bottle, and soaked them. Waited an hour, soaked them again. Repeated hourly for a day, and then washed with soapy water and rinsed them well.

Smaller non-porous items that wouldn't be destroyed by steam, like plastic hides and water bowls, were run through the dishwasher. Anything porous was discarded.

Apparently UV-C radiation kills crypto as well as a host of other bacteria and virii, and in fact it's one method used by municipal water supplies for water treatment before the stuff gets to your faucet, but no one has studied the combined strength + duration required to kill the strains of crypto that affect reptiles. Also UV-C generators that emit strong enough radiation to do the job aren't cheap.

[zina10]

Sadly there has never been any fool proof disinfectant and with some animals even 6 months quarantine do not mean much unless you get your animals tested.

Sadly with the high number of people always looking for cheap deal picking up animals from Craigslist as foundation for their future project epidemics are not about to stop any time soon, same with people having a collection sales.

There also has always been the dirty little secrets and cover ups in this industry people hiding the fact that animals are dying off and do business as usual, the latest cover up of a big breeder selling infected animals for likely as long as 2 years is impacting the hognose industry.

Actually, it was about Hognoses, the Crypto mess I read about. It IS scary. Its so much easier to just "close your eyes and not think about it and hope for the best".
Nowadays it is like you say, no fool proof way. One can only do their best. It is really disappointing to read about breeders full well knowing what is going on, but selling animals anyway and advising their partners to keep it "hush hush". There is just NO excuse.

I have to say though, after reading through all this and researching a bit, I will not buy used caging and racks. I know I'm paranoid about my animals, but by gosh, I thought with enough bleach you kill just about everything. I have read about using formaldehyde and what not, but gosh, you may eventually kill those nasties, but you might end up just about killing yourself and your animals with those extreme chemicals..

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Would anyone be willing to list the commonly spotted symptoms and progression rate for crypto, IBD, etc.?

The problem with either one of those is that animals may remain asymptomatic for years so unless you run some test your animals could live with one or the other for years.

It's also important for people not to panic and many people have tendencies to do just that soon as one of their animal is not eating or does something unusual their is a fine line.

Here is a genral overview on Crypto https://www.merckvetmanual.com/diges...ptosporidiosis

Overview on IBD https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exoti...es-of-reptiles

The good news there are test for both you can go through your vet (I recommend for blood sample needed for IBD test) or you can ship your samples to a lab http://www.vetdna.com/

[zina10]

Unfortunately after dealing with crypto I found this out the hard way. You can disinfect used enclosures that are contaminated with it, but doing so is incredibly difficult and frankly using strong ammonia isn't something you'd want to do in your house.

I took the cages outside, used 100% ammonia in a spray bottle, and soaked them. Waited an hour, soaked them again. Repeated hourly for a day, and then washed with soapy water and rinsed them well.

Smaller non-porous items that wouldn't be destroyed by steam, like plastic hides and water bowls, were run through the dishwasher. Anything porous was discarded.

Apparently UV-C radiation kills crypto as well as a host of other bacteria and virii, and in fact it's one method used by municipal water supplies for water treatment before the stuff gets to your faucet, but no one has studied the combined strength + duration required to kill the strains of crypto that affect reptiles. Also UV-C generators that emit strong enough radiation to do the job aren't cheap.

Wow, I had no idea you had to deal with this. What a nightmare. I hope you didn't loose any or to many animals? So sorry The sanitizing you had to do, wow. But since you already had those cages, I understand that its better to go through those extremes then having to repurchase everything.

I would do the same. But I won't buy used. I would have up until yesterday. But now..no way.

[zina10]

The problem with either one of those is that animals may remain asymptomatic for years so unless you run some test your animals could live with one or the other for years.

It's also important for people not to panic and many people have tendencies to do just that soon as one of their animal is not eating or does something unusual their is a fine line.

Here is a genral overview on Crypto https://www.merckvetmanual.com/diges...ptosporidiosis

Overview on IBD https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exoti...es-of-reptiles

The good news there are test for both you can go through your vet (I recommend for blood sample needed for IBD test) or you can ship your samples to a lab http://www.vetdna.com/

That is a very important point.

Going to the extreme in either direction is not helpful.

Its best to be educated, informed and careful. Do the research, be aware. Don't just close eyes and hope for the best.

On the other hand, don't see IBD or Nido in every little thing. Esp. with Ball Pythons that simply fast at times.

[Bogertophis]

There are so many in this field who deserve respect that it's sobering to realize that you just cannot trust everyone to do the right thing where their "bottom line"
is concerned. That they will sell animals they know were exposed, & others will sell used cages after their pets die from unknown causes should surprise no one.

I've never bought a used cage in my life, though I once accepted a used tank when I rescued the snake they had in it, & it took so much effort to disinfect it to my
satisfaction that I vowed I'd never do it again. With all the little crevices that most cages have, it's just asking for trouble. But you go in thrift stores & often see a
filthy donated tank or cage for sale, and someone always buys them, trying to save money. Rather than save up to buy something safe for their new pet, they
sadly take the risk, and many just don't have a clue. Most everyone "wants it now".

[zina10]

The more I have learned, the more paranoid I have become.
But even paranoid me has considered getting a used cage if I would have found the exact model I want. Just because it's not being made anymore.
I thought if I would bleach it long and thoroughly it would be safe.
I didn't realize it is not so. I didn't realize what you have to do to make it reasonably safe.
While those diseases aren't lurking around every corner, they are also not as rare as I once thought.
I thought F10 and bleach could tackle just about everything..
It just shows me there is always more to learn. More to be aware of. Not to panic about it these things, but to keep them in mind.



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