New habitat owner (no snake...yet) with questions on temp

[Treozen]

Hello all - I am the new owner of a snake terrarium, she is 36 X 18 X 24 and eating well, for a tank. I am trying to get everything well established before I go get a ball python, but having a few challenges that perhaps you all can help with. I've answered the relevant "help us help you" question below, followed by my questions.

1. How long have you had your ball python?

Zero days and counting. No snake yet.


7. What type and size of enclosure does it live in?

Nothing lives in it, but it is an Exo-terra 36 X 18 X 24 w/dual front doors. I understand there is some debate on glass tanks versus other containers, but I have chosen the glass tank and done the following 1) Rear and two sides insulated (rear with 1 inch foam, sides have a curtain of fleece) 2) Screen top is partially covered by a 18 X 18 light fixture, more cover could be done. 3) The entire thing is encased in a wood armoire with perhaps 1 inch gap to each side and 5 to the top, rear is fully enclosed.

8. What are you using as substrate? If it has depth, how deep is it?
A mix of Zoo-Med forest floor cypress mulch, Zoo-Med eco-earth coconut fiber and some sphagnum moss. I'd say the cypress and coconut are in equal amounts. 1 inch +/- deep


9. What type of heating do you use?
11 X 17 Fluker's heating pad. Taped to the bottom of the tank (on the outside). The actual heating element is probably more like 10 X 16. I have it positioned to the left side of the habitat, more to the back than the front.


10. Do you use a thermostat to control temperatures?
Not currently, but I do understand that thermostat control with a probe tapped to the inside, above the heat pad, is required.


11. What do you use to measure/monitor temperatures?
I have two digital thermometers / Hydrometers. One can compare outside temps to inside, the other is reading inside only. I have the inside-only one sitting 2 inches above the substrate, right above the heating pad. The other has two probes, positioned half way up the back wall, over the heated area. I also use an IR handheld laser thermometer to spot check.


12. What are the surface and ambient temperatures in the enclosure?
Ambient temps are 70 degrees with substrate surface temps reading 78 degrees above the heat pad and 64 degrees on the other side. Temps are 103 - 108 if I use the IR thermometer on the glass over the heat pad after clearing some substrate (I know 103 - 108 is too high, but thermostat is not in use yet)


13. What is the average humidity level?
Sitting at around 80% - which is too high, but one problem at a time, lol. Room is currently 45%



19. Do you have any other reptiles? Have you brought in any new reptiles recently?
Bearded Dragon, in different room. Tropical fish (which are not reptiles, but are similar in that you must provide exacting environmental conditions, and monitor and test those conditions)


20. Is there anything specific or unique about your situation that we should be aware of?
I've decided to call my eventual ball python "Kitty" so that I can say " here kitty, kitty, kitty" ...which I think is very funny, so that may give you a sense of my state of mind.


OK, so not to repeat myself, but the premise here is to establish the habitat so that when I bring a snake home, everything is ready and dialed-in properly. I also know that a 36 x 18 is very big for a baby snake, but the plan is to make it seem small and cozy using decor, and remove pieces as the snake grows. The issue I have (well, the one I am trying to fix for now) is temperature. I expected ambient temps to be low given the size of the tank and low temp of the room. What I didn't expect was for the surface temps to be low as well. The heat pad doesn't seem able to get through 1 inch of substrate -which is too shallow by some estimates, but I kept the substrate shallow on purpose to see how much could be added before the heat dissipated....but that test has been scuttled since it seems 1 inch is already more than the heat pad can handle. I considered adding more anyway, perhaps the substrate would hold the heat better with more depth? If it wasn't for 18 million (estimated) youtube videos affirming the use of a heat pad as the only heat source, I'd be convinced the whole heat pad idea is a bad one. For reference, the heat pad has been on now for approximately 13 hours. I have a second smaller self-adhesive exo-terra heat pad that I considered adding to the side wall, to see if that helped. The basic question here, is why is the heat pad not creating the ideal 90 degree "hot spot" or in fact, anything close. The surface temp needs to come up by 12 degrees, that seems like a lot to expect after 13 hours of run time. Ambient temps will be the next challenge, and I know I can always use a light or ceramic heater, but the pad should be doing more than it is for the surface.

Thoughts? Appreciated.

Allan.

[bcr229]

1) Never ever use tape inside of an enclosure.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ALL-caresheets!

2) A UTH MUST BE REGULATED BY A THERMOSTAT OR IT WILL BURN AND EVEN KILL YOUR SNAKE. Sorry to shout but I have been given too many "free" snakes that cost hundreds in vet bills because their prior owners didn't use a thermostat with a heating appliance, and despite the vet care I lost one to sepsis.

The thermostat probe gets sandwiched between the UTH and the underside of the enclosure. You measure the temperature over the UTH using a point thermometer or temperature gun to take the surface temperature of the enclosure floor, not the top of the substrate, because snakes burrow. You only need about 1/4" of substrate over the UTH anyway. A UTH does not increase the ambient temp in an enclosure.

3) A glass enclosure does not hold heat well as glass is a poor insulator. If you can't increase the room temperature then you will need an under-tank heater to create a basking spot, and some form of overhead heat to increase the ambient air in the enclosure. Personally I prefer ceramic heat emitters (CHE) or deep heat projectors (DHP) over a red bulb as they are more efficient and last much longer than heat bulbs.

[Treozen]

2) A UTH MUST BE REGULATED BY A THERMOSTAT OR IT WILL BURN AND EVEN KILL YOUR SNAKE. Sorry to shout but I have been given too many "free" snakes that cost hundreds in vet bills because their prior owners didn't use a thermostat with a heating appliance, and despite the vet care I lost one to sepsis.

Agreed, see my answer above to question 10. The thermostat(s) are already on the way, but I have not received them yet, and since there is no snake in the tank anyway, seems little harm in running the heat pad to see what other heat sources will be needed

The thermostat probe gets sandwiched between the UTH and the underside of the enclosure. You measure the temperature over the UTH using a point thermometer or temperature gun to take the surface temperature of the enclosure floor, not the top of the substrate, because snakes burrow.

Yes, IR laser thermometer is being used to check temps at the glass, with substrate moved aside.

You only need about 1/4" of substrate over the UTH anyway. A UTH does not increase the ambient temp in an enclosure.

Everything here makes sense, and at the same time, conflicts with other sources. Which sources are right? I've read you must have 2 inches of substrate and the probe is on the glass-side so as to get an accurate reading. Its very confusing when the guidance is so contradictory. ;-) I've even seen tanks with 4 inches of ground cover. I wonder if the snakes get together and compare substrate depths - like humans might cars, or shoes.

[/QUOTE]

[OkamiFlautist]

First off, hello Allan! Thanks for taking the time to fill out the relevant questions!

Everything here makes sense, and at the same time, conflicts with other sources. Which sources are right? I've read you must have 2 inches of substrate and the probe is on the glass-side so as to get an accurate reading. Its very confusing when the guidance is so contradictory. ;-) I've even seen tanks with 4 inches of ground cover. I wonder if the snakes get together and compare substrate depths - like humans might cars, or shoes.

The reason the thermostat's probe goes OUTSIDE of the vivarium is because if the snake urinates on it, water is spilled on it, or it is moved, it will register a cooler temperature which can cause the thermostat to spike to compensate, ultimately leading to fried snake when the temperature increases too much. If you search on the forum here you can read all about why thermostat probe placement is incredibly important!

Here's a good visualization for you for the probe placement:



In regards to humidity, that is definitely too high. I personally use a combination of a UTH and a CHE for my ball which keeps her humidity perfectly in check! Something to note here though is I live in a very humid area so it is a battle for me to lower my humidity.

About the substrate depth - what bcr229 means is over the UTH the substrate should be very ​shallow to allow heat transfer. The other parts of the vivarium are able to have thicker substrate.

Another note- you say you have Eco-Earth coconut fiber substrate. Was this one of the condensed bricks you needed to add water to? If it was that would also hugely raise your humidity if you only have a UTH on your vivarium.

What kind of thermostat(s) did you order?

Would you mind sharing a picture of your viv for reference? A tank that big would need a lot of clutter for a baby ball python to actually feel secure in, and it would help with suggestions to better prepare you for your BP!

[bcr229]

Some snakes need thicker substrate but they also need to be cooler and more humid than ball pythons. Two examples are Brazilian rainbow boas and sunbeam snakes.

I keep my ball pythons on newspaper and they're easy to clean - everything out, throw away soiled paper, put in fresh paper, return hides, water bowl, and snake.

[Treozen]

The reason the thermostat's probe goes OUTSIDE of the vivarium is because if the snake urinates on it, water is spilled on it, or it is moved, it will register a cooler temperature which can cause the thermostat to spike to compensate, ultimately leading to fried snake when the temperature increases too much.

Makes sense. I will amend the plan to install the thermostat sensor as shown. What do you use to keep the thermometer probe in place under the substrate?

In regards to humidity, that is definitely too high. I personally use a combination of a UTH and a CHE for my ball which keeps her humidity perfectly in check! Something to note here though is I live in a very humid area so it is a battle for me to lower my humidity.

Yep, my hope is that if I add a ceramic heat emitter it will knock down the humidity while increasing the ambient temps. I live in Washington State, our average humidity is somewhere around 60%, but I have a wood insert that drops the humidity down to 35 - 45% in the winter

About the substrate depth - what bcr229 means is over the UTH the substrate should be very ​shallow to allow heat transfer. The other parts of the vivarium are able to have thicker substrate.

Ah ok, I'll give that a go. I've been able to get substrate surface up to 80 degrees with 1-inch cover. I also added two hides and "inside hide" temps are now 88 - 90. Cool side is still 72 and ambient is still around 72 - 73

Another note- you say you have Eco-Earth coconut fiber substrate. Was this one of the condensed bricks you needed to add water to? If it was that would also hugely raise your humidity if you only have a UTH on your vivarium.

No, it was the bag of lose stuff. The cedar mulch is what had all the moisture, even the bag was getting condensation inside just from sitting in the room.

What kind of thermostat(s) did you order?

BN-Link digital heat mat thermostat
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Would you mind sharing a picture of your viv for reference? A tank that big would need a lot of clutter for a baby ball python to actually feel secure in, and it would help with suggestions to better prepare you for your BP!

Sure - I am not a very good photographer. This is what I've done so far, the habitat has been "operating" for about a day, decor so far was added this morning.

[oropher101]

Makes sense. I will amend the plan to install the thermostat sensor as shown. What do you use to keep the thermometer probe in place under the substrate?

With the thermostat probe in the right spot, your thermometer probe shouldn't have to go under the substrate at all. most people use an infrared or laser thermometer to take floor temps. most probes are free floating, you never want to use anything sticky inside your tank. some thermometers come with suction cups that you can use to attach the probe to the glass, otherwise it just kinda hangs there.

[OkamiFlautist]

Makes sense. I will amend the plan to install the thermostat sensor as shown. What do you use to keep the thermometer probe in place under the substrate?

My thermometers came with a suction cup physically attached (I use ZooMed Digital Thermometers). That way the suction cup cannot detach from the probe and fall into the vivarium, but it also helps secure the probe. I stick that to the wall and then weave the thermometer down and underneath the soil, so the actual thermometers are not physically attached. I check the probe placement daily or any time I check (I check temps three times a day) and the temps seem off. I rely more on my IR thermometer for true temperatures, and essentially use the digital ones as a back up.

Yep, my hope is that if I add a ceramic heat emitter it will knock down the humidity while increasing the ambient temps. I live in Washington State, our average humidity is somewhere around 60%, but I have a wood insert that drops the humidity down to 35 - 45% in the winter

A CHE sounds perfect idea for you then, both for your temps and your humidity. I'm in British Columbia and our average humidity is current around 72%

Ah ok, I'll give that a go. I've been able to get substrate surface up to 80 degrees with 1-inch cover. I also added two hides and "inside hide" temps are now 88 - 90. Cool side is still 72 and ambient is still around 72 - 73

Are the hides identical? If the hides are not identical, the snake may prefer one hide to the other, leading it to favor whatever side that hide is on more. That may mean it ends up on the cold or hot side more than it should.
So temperature wise the cool side is still too low. With the thermostat you linked, it sounds like it would be a good idea for you to have two of them (one for the cold side, one for the warm side), or to invest in a thermostat that has two temperature zones and two probes so you can individually set temps for both sides.

No, it was the bag of lose stuff. The cedar mulch is what had all the moisture, even the bag was getting condensation inside just from sitting in the room.

I highlighted this for safety- do you mean cypress? Any aromatic woods such as cedar and pine contain oils that are toxic for snakes.
ZooMed's Forest Floor bedding holds onto humidity really well. If you are having issues with high humidity, it may be a good idea to remove that from your substrate. I currently use coconut fibre mixed with Reptibark and sphagnum moss, and I find that it works perfectly.

Sure - I am not a very good photographer. This is what I've done so far, the habitat has been "operating" for about a day, decor so far was added this morning.

Looking good!

[Treozen]

Are the hides identical? If the hides are not identical, the snake may prefer one hide to the other, leading it to favor whatever side that hide is on more. That may mean it ends up on the cold or hot side more than it should.
So temperature wise the cool side is still too low. With the thermostat you linked, it sounds like it would be a good idea for you to have two of them (one for the cold side, one for the warm side)

Hmm, didn't think about that, they are not the same, but I could easily get another that is the same. As for the thermostats, 2 are already on their way, so I was thinking the same thing.

I highlighted this for safety- do you mean cypress? Any aromatic woods such as cedar and pine contain oils that are toxic for snakes.

Sigh, yes, I meant cypress NOT cedar, lol. [/QUOTE]

[OkamiFlautist]

Hmm, didn't think about that, they are not the same, but I could easily get another that is the same. As for the thermostats, 2 are already on their way, so I was thinking the same thing.

I would definitely suggest getting two of the same!

Sigh, yes, I meant cypress NOT cedar, lol.

Okay good, just thought I should double check! lol