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  1. #11
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by timeakinga View Post
    Ehhhh I think their response could have done much better without attitude but I sure appreciate your reply! None of my others had been so nippy when they were that young and just with no improvement whatsoever the past few weeks I got skeptical about whether this would be something I’m still dealing with later on. Which is fine considering I’ve worked with venomous but never had interest in kings at all before so wanted experienced opinions! Thank you!
    Gotcha. Yeah, Kings and colubrids in general are a bit different, especially if you didn't start out with them.

    Since you're not a new snake keeper you'll have it figured out in no time. They're just tiny and afraid of everything til they get some size on them, which raises their confidence levels.

    I've never rushed into frequent handling with Kings and all of mine have been very good with handling by the time they're around 150-200 grams (I'm guessing a little since I didn't track weights back when I first started out in 1999-2000ish). Just be patient, they do mellow out. That being said, I've definitely met some Kings that are just usually jerks. One I was thinking of buying was an adult female who tagged me about a dozen times in about 3 minutes. She never held on, and kinda gently chewed a few times, but she was just a jerk. I didn't take her home, hahaha!.

    Anyway, hope I helped you out a bit. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have regarding Kings. They've been my favorite species for almost 20 years.

    Oh, and P.S. just my two cents: @Bogertophis is a very knowledgeable colubrid keeper who I've interacted with frequently on the forum. I doubt her reply was meant in a mean way, but I understand how it could be perceived that way. I guess my point is, she's gained my utmost respect, especially in regards to colubrids, so I hope you two can "shake hands" and move forward because she's great to learn from.
    Last edited by Craiga 01453; 01-31-2019 at 05:41 PM.

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  3. #12
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by timeakinga View Post
    Again I have 6 other snakes I am not BRAND new to this and I’m asking for advice not attitude. I also mentioned that I gave him a week before his first handling. Because he was so stressed I gave him at least another week off before trying again maybe once and another 5 days and another few more but because now it’s been weeks is why I’ve seen people recommend consistency in handling them so I guess maybe each to their own I’m sure I’ll figure it out since all of my others are just fine with them! And having many more snakes I’m used to their urine and poop so it doesn’t quite scare me off lol but thanks!
    Nothing in my response to you was meant with "attitude" of any kind.

    You claim experience & yet you said you were handling this snake after only a week, & then did so repeatedly, somehow expecting a different result?
    That's what newbies do, just saying.

    I'll not bother you with my answers from now on.

  4. #13
    BPnet Veteran Danger noodles's Avatar
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Nothing in my response to you was meant with "attitude" of any kind.

    You claim experience & yet you said you were handling this snake after only a week, & then did so repeatedly, somehow expecting a different result?
    That's what newbies do, just saying.

    I'll not bother you with my answers from now on.
    Cat fight!!! Lol

    isnt that the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome?

  5. #14
    BPnet Veteran Danger noodles's Avatar
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    Also question for the op, is that avatar of u? It’s a cool pic. Beautiful women with snakes! Always a win!

  6. #15
    Registered User timeakinga's Avatar
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Nothing in my response to you was meant with "attitude" of any kind.

    You claim experience & yet you said you were handling this snake after only a week, & then did so repeatedly, somehow expecting a different result?
    That's what newbies do, just saying.

    I'll not bother you with my answers from now on.

    Ummmm you are full of assumptions ... quoting from my initial post : “I gave him a week to get settled in, then fed and he ate, husbandry is correct.”

    LOL That does not say I handled him after a week that says I FED after a week. I give no defined timeline I have had him so maybe try asking the appropriate questions then assuming I’m an idiot lmfao. Yupppp I claim it because I do congrats. Half your response including now is insinuating that I have no idea what I’m doing. Nothing more arrrogant than someone attempting to belittle other keepers rather than educate. So sorry for asking! Not. Yes please do spare me and take your apparent superiority to someone else’s thread. Toodaloo!

  7. #16
    Registered User timeakinga's Avatar
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by Danger noodles View Post
    Cat fight!!! Lol

    isnt that the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome?
    You can read my most recent reply to them.. in no area of this thread did I state I was attempting to handle after one week. I said I fed after one week.. so no I am not making repetitive mistakes thank you. I tried giving time and I also tried consistency. Those are two separate ways of approaching a situation? I’m not going to sit here and argue whoever can assume whatever Im just here to appreciate the input of those who actually have something positive to contribute to this thread.

  8. #17
    Registered User timeakinga's Avatar
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by Danger noodles View Post
    Also question for the op, is that avatar of u? It’s a cool pic. Beautiful women with snakes! Always a win!
    Yup it is thank you and it’s nice until people assume you’re retarded just cause you look decent haha. Too bad I’m in the medical field so not my fault for their naive assumptions!

  9. #18
    Registered User timeakinga's Avatar
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal View Post
    Sorry in advance for the rambling, lol. All this is just my trial and error. Though she did musk a lot, I never saw any other stress behaviors from her (throat puffing, regurgitation, meal refusal, etc.)

    I let her settle in for a few weeks; QT for me means paper towels so after meal 1 she got 1 pick up/relocate handle so I could change the towels from poop/pee weekly (more if she pooped or peed more of course). Did that for most of QT and she wasn't super musk-y then, almost entirely rattle and flee, but I only had hands on her 20 seconds or so at a time.

    By the end of that, she was probably 30 grams? So I tried 2x weekly handling for a few minutes at a time; that's where she really started in earnest due to opportunity; I'm sure she would have musked more during QT if I had handled for more than the time to move her around. She was so squirmy I didn't want to freak her out and I had others that I could handle for my "fix" of snakes.

    Continue like that till she wa 50-60g which is when my corn had started to really calm down, so I had hoped she would too; it seemed like enough added size to at least begin calming. That's when I came across the frequent, very brief sessions that you aim to end positively (all directions said snake must be calm to end, but that was not gonna happen for her in < 5 minutes, so I adjusted to "calmer than the start").

    It worked... ok? She did calm a little bit, but pretty much musked for the full 5 mins with 10 seconds burst of freeze/no musk "calm"... not really a positive as it was definitely a fear state. I gave it the good old college try and didn't give up right away in case the changed process was her issue rather than the handling at all, so I did it for 4 or 5 weeks, I think.

    By then, especially since she started "projectile musking" the first session after a meal and being super dramatic about it, more than she was before, I decided it was not a good method for her (even if people online found success with it on other snakes). Also, I was sick of cleaning musk off of not only my hands, but my shirt, pants, the floor, her tub, her hides, her water bowl... etc. It was not very localized once she was long enough to swing her tail around and get it everywhere.

    From there I kind of decided she was not likely to be a handling snake. I considered seeing if there were any breeders looking for a female with a year of feeding down that wouldn't care if she hated handling, but ultimately decided that I was committed to her. Even with her "awful" personality, I was too attached.

    Instead I thought I would do a combo approach for 2 different things. Unlike most kings people talk about, when I had her in a display-type cage, she was NEVER out, and if she was would be extremely frightened if anyone entered the room. So I have her in an opaque tub; she is maybe 2.5 feet now and in a 3ft long tub. If/when she gets over 3-3.5 feet, I'll look for a bigger tub for her. Even if I need to make it opaque myself with spray paint, lol.

    2nd I stopped handling her if at all possible. In the tub, she mostly pooped away from her preferred hide, so if I was quiet I could sneak it out of the substrate without disturbing her; I could also manage the water the same way. So I had probably 3 months where she was handled twice to do a full cage clean and nothing else. Then I moved to this every other week lift her out when spot cleaning, and keep her out about 2 minutes longer. I also tried for a bit leaving dirty socks or scrap fabric I had carried all day in her tub to hide in and smell me, but it didn't make a noticeable difference.

    In a few months I may work up to weekly holding past the cleaning or just 5-10 minute sessions every 2 weeks, but we will see if her improvements hold.

    She is probably 1 year old now, I got her early March of last year as a probably 1-2 month old. (And I do NOT touch her in shed.. she's so skittish and defensive that it isn't worth it at all for her; as soon as I notice, I avoid even lifting hides to look in on her until I spot shed in the tub and only spot-clean the open area outside the hides; tub gets fully cleaned when she is shed out usually)

    I'm convinced that her calmness has nothing to do with being handled. I think it is almost purely her increasing size and her comfort and security in her tub. Even now, if I open the tub and wake her up without immediately scooping her up, she rattles like mad and if I hesitate I can almost guarantee it will cause her to musk me. She also rears up rattlesnake style and will chase me out of the tub trying to bite. Needless to say, I don't hesitate and if I do by accident somehow, I just close the tub and try another day.

    I have done the "you can't scare me, I will handle anyway" routine, but she never calms if I do that and usually the next few sessions are bad for us both (I stopped doing that "handle anyway" during the low handling time about 2 or 3 months ago; I doubt her improvement is related, but she hasn't regressed after brief improvements like she had been doing consistently before); as long as I get her out promptly before she fully wakes up to be fearful, she doesn't seem to have the association that she "scared" me off before nor is she as afraid of being out..


    What works for me may not work for you, and I don't know how temperamentally similar a MBK is to a chain king, but you can try any of the methods to see what helps you. Just don't make changes constantly to your process. Pick a few things and do them for 1-2 months minimum once yours has had a few more weeks to settle in (like boger said).

    For example, 1) keep lots of clutter & low traffic, 2) handle only for spot cleaning + or - a few extra minutes, 3) don't wait for the snake to wake up fully and get into full fear mode by seeing you (I gently touch the side if lifting the hide got no reaction, then smoothly lift from the middle body onto a flat palm; enough to say "hey I'm here" before just scooping a fully asleep snake;if the hide lift results in movement, I just scoop up cuz that means she isn't asleep).

    Or do it reverse on #2 & 3, handle often and briefly and ensure the snake knows you are there well before attempting to handle... success has come from both directions that I've heard.

    I don't get pics of her often since she is a handful, but here is an older feeding shot.


    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

    Now THAT is a quality answer thank you so much for the time you put in that detail and aiming toward and being informative rather than belittling! I appreciate it!

  10. #19
    Registered User timeakinga's Avatar
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by craigafrechette View Post
    Gotcha. Yeah, Kings and colubrids in general are a bit different, especially if you didn't start out with them.

    Since you're not a new snake keeper you'll have it figured out in no time. They're just tiny and afraid of everything til they get some size on them, which raises their confidence levels.

    I've never rushed into frequent handling with Kings and all of mine have been very good with handling by the time they're around 150-200 grams (I'm guessing a little since I didn't track weights back when I first started out in 1999-2000ish). Just be patient, they do mellow out. That being said, I've definitely met some Kings that are just usually jerks. One I was thinking of buying was an adult female who tagged me about a dozen times in about 3 minutes. She never held on, and kinda gently chewed a few times, but she was just a jerk. I didn't take her home, hahaha!.

    Anyway, hope I helped you out a bit. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have regarding Kings. They've been my favorite species for almost 20 years.

    Oh, and P.S. just my two cents: @Bogertophis is a very knowledgeable colubrid keeper who I've interacted with frequently on the forum. I doubt her reply was meant in a mean way, but I understand how it could be perceived that way. I guess my point is, she's gained my utmost respect, especially in regards to colubrids, so I hope you two can "shake hands" and move forward because she's great to learn from.
    Yea they are new to my collection hence me seeking advice rather than assuming that the same methods work for my other species. I think I’ve got enough input to better have a general knowledge of the timeline of things and thank you for contributing your responses! Haha awe well I’m sure you weren’t missing out too much on the snake tagging you that many times in that short period of time lolol. I’ve only been tagged once by my BRB but that’s it You definitely have and I appreciate you being willing to answer future Qs!

    Thanks haha though i’ll do just fine without I’d rather follow advice of people who don’t try to insinuate that you’re dumb. I really don’t care enough to have an issue with it past today cuz I’ll have plenty other helpful users!

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  12. #20
    BPnet Veteran pretends2bnormal's Avatar
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    Re: Stressed Mexican Black Kingsnake

    Quote Originally Posted by timeakinga View Post
    Now THAT is a quality answer thank you so much for the time you put in that detail and aiming toward and being informative rather than belittling! I appreciate it!
    I find it doesn't help anyone to focus on "history" whether it was right or wrong. I get why people pointed out and assumed what they did (we see a lot on here stated like that where it was exactly that case, sadly..).

    I'm still a "newbie" compared to most on here (got my first snake in 2017... aaaand now I have 15 across 9 species, lol), but what you described was exactly what happened with mine, so I figured sharing what I tried and what worked/didn't work may help out some.

    It seems like it is likely you'll have at least several months to a year of stink before yours gets big enough to get over it (though I don't recall if you said the weight above?), and since it seems a lot of folks here have more success waiting for a bigger size than trying to socialize it out, that's probably the best way to go.

    Briefly 1x weekly when doing a thorough spot-check is probably the best way to go till you get up around 120-150g. That's what I wish I had tried from the start anyway... would've saved my nose a LOT, my girl puts gasoline to shame.

    I'm hoping you keep us posted how it goes and share some pics! I originally wanted a MBK, but since I couldn't find any, I picked the next most black kingsnake species we had at our expos. The chain pattern is pretty cool regardless, so I'm happy enough, but still love seeing MBK pics.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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