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Thread: OMG disaster.

  1. #71
    BPnet Senior Member Skyrivers's Avatar
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    Re: OMG disaster.

    I would like to have this thread closed on a good note. Monty is doing well and took food last night. Rainbow is also doing well and enjoyed 5 quail as a treat. I have learned a lesson and am also doing well. My friend is also doing well.

    In short everyone is ok and I have gained much needed experience before my baby is full grown and hope that this experience makes me a better keeper as a result.


    Moderators please lock this thread from future posts.

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  3. #72
    BPnet Senior Member MR Snakes's Avatar
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    Glad to hear all has worked out.

  4. #73
    BPnet Lifer zina10's Avatar
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    In all honesty, I have seen no bashing going on at all. If anything, everyone was quite respectful in posting their opinions. And opinions will vary.

    I also don't think its quite fair to tell people they should not comment in a forum if they currently do not keep that species or haven't. This entire community will be fairly limited then. It was courageous of Skyrivers to share his mistake. But its only to be expected that there will be discussion because of it. Of the potential of such a situation being far worse, or what could/should have been done differently. I think Skyrivers took to it well.

    Its the same with all species. Some don't agree with morph breeding or with breeding of particular morphs. That is their prerogative. No-one tells them to stay off of the forum or post because they may not have morphs or those particular ones. We ARE a reptile community here, not exclusive to the species we keep. As long as the discussion is respectful, it is no problem to have opinions coming from different angles. As well as then discussing a different opinion of the different opinion

    These forums and posts will be read by others and for years to come. There is a lot to gain from discussions. As to stricter laws that have been established regarding more dangerous species, they usually are presented AFTER a incident that becomes news. Is there a lot of misconception in the general public when it comes to ANY snake, esp. giants or hots? YES. But having a teenager found killed by a large snake or a keeper killed by his hots doesn't help that misconception the public has about all of us. So yes, these incidents are definitely hits on our hobby. There absolutely has to be a higher degree of knowledge and prevention when it comes to the species that can cause harm.

    A bite from a hot can kill you or put you in a world of hurt. But you may have a chance and time to get to a hospital. If you get grabbed AND wrapped by a giant just right, you have seconds or minutes before passing out and there is no one there to help or you cannot reach something to get the snake off, you are in bad trouble. Pointing fingers from one to the other doesn't help. A cat bite can kill you from infection, a horse can kick you to death in a split second. But its a fact, the general population is (mostly) not a fan of reptiles, looks at snakes as dangerous and every time someone is in the news people scream for more laws to protect themselves from the "crazy" reptile people and their animals.

    No doubt are there very many VERY responsible keepers of the more dangerous species. I have seen no bashing of that at all. Just a general reminder that those animals are not and should not be for everyone. All the responsible hot/giant keepers I know actually agree with that and have strong opinions about that.

    My point was mostly for Skyrivers to be aware that something going wrong at a show and tell can have bad consequences for him and to be aware of that. We live in a very sue happy country and one mistake involving the wrong person can turn his life upside down. That can happen when taking smaller animals as well, but of course, the stakes go higher when something happens involving such a powerful animal. My advice was to keep the giants home during these casual show and tells. (meaning, non professional held, no insurance, etc) It doesn't mean he has to take the advice, mine or anyone else's. But this is a forum to discuss. And discussion will happen.

    I believe it has run its course now, though, as Skyriver has said. I'm glad both snakes are fine and no lasting damage has been done
    Zina

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  6. #74
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: OMG disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by 55fingers View Post
    ... I don't think there should be a blanket statement of "these animals aren't to be kept". Maybe "these animals pose a danger and aren't suited for most homes/keepers"....
    Nor do I...but I'm fine with restricting [giants & hots] to those who pass some minimum standards to achieve a permit. (And again, this is NOT directed at Skyrivers specifically, only to the topic.) The problem with the warning label-approach (& it's already implied anyway) is that is the very reason so many want to keep these in the first place...they have some-thing to "prove" to themselves and to others. They are not learning to work with them because they turn up in their neighborhood...these are exotics they must seek out & buy.

    I can remember hearing about one very sad outcome...a very experienced man who kept his giant constrictors in a separate building was found there (deceased)...he was killed by the giant snake that he was comfortable working with, after trying to medicate it. It objected & he was working alone. How many strong adults does it take to restrain a giant snake that is not cooperative? And how many keepers ALWAYS have that team of helpers on hand? That's why I think zoos are the proper place for these types of snakes. Yes, it's also risky to work hots alone, but not every hot keeper does the sort of things you see on YouTube...certainly the ones who respect their lives, their animals & their neighbors don't. For hots it's a question of common sense, like using shift cages to move them, & NEVER working them with distractions, fatigue, or use of alcohol/drugs, legal or not. The reason I brought hots into the discussion was out of fairness, since I worked with them, & as I said before, think that a permit system would be better for everyone, the keepers AND the snakes. If nothing else,
    the person buying either one has more 'skin in the game'...it slows down the impulse-buying & forces you to think about your future, living with such consequential animals. About what happens when your pet out-grows your ability & interest & lives a very long time...? About where you can live legally to keep it & who will BE there to help you...?
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 01-21-2019 at 01:39 PM.

  7. #75
    BPnet Senior Member Skyrivers's Avatar
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    Re: OMG disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by zina10 View Post
    In all honesty, I have seen no bashing going on at all. If anything, everyone was quite respectful in posting their opinions. And opinions will vary.

    I also don't think its quite fair to tell people they should not comment in a forum if they currently do not keep that species or haven't. This entire community will be fairly limited then. It was courageous of Skyrivers to share his mistake. But its only to be expected that there will be discussion because of it. Of the potential of such a situation being far worse, or what could/should have been done differently. I think Skyrivers took to it well.

    Its the same with all species. Some don't agree with morph breeding or with breeding of particular morphs. That is their prerogative. No-one tells them to stay off of the forum or post because they may not have morphs or those particular ones. We ARE a reptile community here, not exclusive to the species we keep. As long as the discussion is respectful, it is no problem to have opinions coming from different angles. As well as then discussing a different opinion of the different opinion

    These forums and posts will be read by others and for years to come. There is a lot to gain from discussions. As to stricter laws that have been established regarding more dangerous species, they usually are presented AFTER a incident that becomes news. Is there a lot of misconception in the general public when it comes to ANY snake, esp. giants or hots? YES. But having a teenager found killed by a large snake or a keeper killed by his hots doesn't help that misconception the public has about all of us. So yes, these incidents are definitely hits on our hobby. There absolutely has to be a higher degree of knowledge and prevention when it comes to the species that can cause harm.

    A bite from a hot can kill you or put you in a world of hurt. But you may have a chance and time to get to a hospital. If you get grabbed AND wrapped by a giant just right, you have seconds or minutes before passing out and there is no one there to help or you cannot reach something to get the snake off, you are in bad trouble. Pointing fingers from one to the other doesn't help. A cat bite can kill you from infection, a horse can kick you to death in a split second. But its a fact, the general population is (mostly) not a fan of reptiles, looks at snakes as dangerous and every time someone is in the news people scream for more laws to protect themselves from the "crazy" reptile people and their animals.

    No doubt are there very many VERY responsible keepers of the more dangerous species. I have seen no bashing of that at all. Just a general reminder that those animals are not and should not be for everyone. All the responsible hot/giant keepers I know actually agree with that and have strong opinions about that.

    My point was mostly for Skyrivers to be aware that something going wrong at a show and tell can have bad consequences for him and to be aware of that. We live in a very sue happy country and one mistake involving the wrong person can turn his life upside down. That can happen when taking smaller animals as well, but of course, the stakes go higher when something happens involving such a powerful animal. My advice was to keep the giants home during these casual show and tells. (meaning, non professional held, no insurance, etc) It doesn't mean he has to take the advice, mine or anyone else's. But this is a forum to discuss. And discussion will happen.

    I believe it has run its course now, though, as Skyriver has said. I'm glad both snakes are fine and no lasting damage has been done

    Thank you. Something people don't know is that I am insured and licensed properly to do the things I have been doing. I take owning, displaying, and sharing them very seriously. Does this mean I will never have an issue? No. Anyone in the hobby can and will eventually have an issue of some kind if they are in it long enough. It is what you do when it happens. The reading here as well as other places helped me deal with the issue when it happened and I feel that that prepared me to deal with the situation properly as a result only Monty was hurt and not nearly as bad as it could have been.

    I think making a post about what to do when things go wrong to help keepers in general should be a good place to continue discussion about the subject. This incident is resolved and brought education along with it.

    Thanks.

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  9. #76
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: OMG disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinK View Post
    ...
    See now this where it gets interesting though....because in your own words (once again on your other posts) you have been keeping snakes in general for approx 25 years, yet have owned hots for 20 some odd years.
    Just for the record, I've kept an uncounted number of snakes for at least 33 years and incidentally, the BCI that I had for some 12 years was a rescue that no one
    wanted as a (bitey) yearling, & when she finally became larger than I was comfortable dealing with, I re-homed her with a couple I know that are into boas. Cheers.

  10. #77
    BPnet Lifer zina10's Avatar
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    May I ask who you got insured through and what entailed that process ? How much liability do you carry and how much does it cost?

    I used to do these educational presentations all the time back before I moved. I had a BALL doing them, esp. at elementary schools. It is amazing how little fear the young kids had, unlike the adults at that school. And how willing to learn they were. Also their capacity to love and feel empathy to all the creatures, not just the fluffy ones.

    I had the funniest questions as well. One boy once asked me what would happen if I took off my shoe, socks and held my naked foot up to the snake. I had to admit I never tried that, LOL

    I always tried to teach not to fear these animals, but to respect them. Esp. outdoors.

    I also enjoyed those educational presentations when our herp club gave them at the local wildlife and nature parks. Met wonderful and open minded people.

    Lately I've been thinking about offering such presentations again, esp. to kids and people willing to learn. But in this sue-happy place and sue-happy times I do worry some. Even if I do not bring dangerous animals, they are still animals. One could actually bite ME and someone could claim they are forever psychologically damaged or some nonsense like that .

    At a educational presentation that was given by a local wildlife preservation group one of their guys was bitten (and chewed on, lol) by their gorgeous Indigo snake. He handled it well and hardly anyone noticed since his long sleeve kind of hid the snake chewing on his wrist. He just kept on walking around and talking, LOL.

    I think before I would go back into all this I would like to get insured, just in case! Sad that this is how it is nowadays, but better safe then sorry.
    Last edited by zina10; 01-21-2019 at 01:58 PM.
    Zina

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  12. #78
    BPnet Senior Member Skyrivers's Avatar
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    Re: OMG disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Just for the record, I've kept an uncounted number of snakes for at least 33 years and incidentally, the BCI that I had for some 12 years was a rescue that no one
    wanted as a (bitey) yearling, & when she finally became larger than I was comfortable dealing with, I re-homed her with a couple I know that are into boas. Cheers.
    Please take this discussion elsewhere. It is unrelated to OP.

  13. #79
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: OMG disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyrivers View Post
    Please take this discussion elsewhere. It is unrelated to OP.
    Sorry but I was responding to KevinK's post # 70 that I just became aware of. So why don't you snark at him too?



    And I don't feel as you apparently do that I've "bashed" you here...FYI, I tend to enjoy your posts.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 01-21-2019 at 02:12 PM.

  14. #80
    BPnet Senior Member Skyrivers's Avatar
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    Re: OMG disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Sorry but I was responding to KevinK's post # 70 that I just became aware of. So why don't you snark at him too?



    And I don't feel as you apparently do that I've "bashed" you here...FYI, I tend to enjoy your posts.
    I don't feel "bashed" at all and the posts will keep coming. Just trying to keep this thread focused and will remind anyone that is off subject in the future to do so. I did not feel back tracking 7 pages would be good use of my time.

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