Ethics question in relationship to breeding.

[Cheesenugget]

If nature was to take its place, not every male would be able to breed and among those who do, not every male gets to sire their offspring (ie sperm competition, the arms race against the female sex organ defenses, etc). We used to think the larger, dominant male of a species typically gets mating rights and sire the group's offspring. Come to find out, many of the smaller, submissive males plus the willingness of some promiscuous females sire the offspring that are reared and/or protected by the dominant male (Unknown to him). Females generally have a lot to say in deciding who to mate, and even after the fact, whose sperm to reject or keep.

So if we were to let nature be for our snakes, how can we meet that goal? In the wild, numerous males compete for the one female. In captivity, are we allowing our males to fight to breed? Even if there is a victor, it is still selective breeding because the victor came from a very small pool of males vs a random, large sample of males.

If a population grows too large to support itself, breeding should halt, whether it be in captivity or in the wild. Specifically for captive bred ball pythons and bearded dragons, there are way too many being hatched and not equally good homes provided to each one. Craigslist is a constant reminder of the abundant and unwanted.

So breed if you will, but breed responsibly with the plan of ensuring each one you bring to their world goes to a proper home.

[zina10]

After a quick google, neutering a snake may not be that easy.

For birth control purposes, removing the hemipenes would suffice. And they are removed when damaged without problems, not a major surgery. But..it would do nothing to prevent the instincts and urges.

For that the testicles would have to be removed. Which are in the abdominal area and that would require a far riskier and more involved surgery.

That may not completely remove the male aggression or instinct to breed 100% either. I have seen Geldings getting excited and even mounting mares. The instinct can still be there, even after a successful gelding, meaning both testicles and tissues were removed. Even worse with an aggressive animal, it doesn't always take the aggression away. For behavior and aggression issues it always works best if its done before the animal becomes sexually mature.

So then one would have to wonder, would it be worth the risk if the outcome may not be what was expected?

Perhaps in the future that is something that will become more commonplace?

[Skyrivers]

After a quick google, neutering a snake may not be that easy.

For birth control purposes, removing the hemipenes would suffice. And they are removed when damaged without problems, not a major surgery. But..it would do nothing to prevent the instincts and urges.

For that the testicles would have to be removed. Which are in the abdominal area and that would require a far riskier and more involved surgery.

That may not completely remove the male aggression or instinct to breed 100% either. I have seen Geldings getting excited and even mounting mares. The instinct can still be there, even after a successful gelding, meaning both testicles and tissues were removed. Even worse with an aggressive animal, it doesn't always take the aggression away. For behavior and aggression issues it always works best if its done before the animal becomes sexually mature.

So then one would have to wonder, would it be worth the risk if the outcome may not be what was expected?

Perhaps in the future that is something that will become more commonplace?

I think I will call my exotics vet and have the discussion with him to get his 2 cents. BRB.

[Skyrivers]

Keep the discussion going while I wait for a call back please.

[Skyrivers]

I don't think the question was understood as of yet.

Is it s quality of life issue to not allow them to breed if they are driven to find a mate and we deny them the access to do so?

[bcr229]

After a quick google, neutering a snake may not be that easy.

For birth control purposes, removing the hemipenes would suffice. And they are removed when damaged without problems, not a major surgery. But..it would do nothing to prevent the instincts and urges.

For that the testicles would have to be removed. Which are in the abdominal area and that would require a far riskier and more involved surgery.

That may not completely remove the male aggression or instinct to breed 100% either. I have seen Geldings getting excited and even mounting mares. The instinct can still be there, even after a successful gelding, meaning both testicles and tissues were removed. Even worse with an aggressive animal, it doesn't always take the aggression away. For behavior and aggression issues it always works best if its done before the animal becomes sexually mature.

So then one would have to wonder, would it be worth the risk if the outcome may not be what was expected?

Perhaps in the future that is something that will become more commonplace?

Correct, it's not easy surgery like with a dog or cat. The hemipenes could actually be left alone; it's the testes that would need to be removed. This is why I said you'd have to weigh the risk/cost against the benefits.

[zina10]

Correct, it's not easy surgery like with a dog or cat. The hemipenes could actually be left alone; it's the testes that would need to be removed. This is why I said you'd have to weigh the risk/cost against the benefits.

I wonder how many vets have performed that surgery ? I think one problem would be that most people seeking out such a surgery would do it because of an animal that already displays aggression once sexually mature. However, that surgery doesn't always fix this issue. I believe fixing male iguanas to prevent aggression is more common. Not always a success but may be worth a try.

[AbsoluteApril]

I don't think the question was understood as of yet.

Is it s quality of life issue to not allow them to breed if they are driven to find a mate and we deny them the access to do so?

What impact would there be on their quality of life by not breeding?

[Skyrivers]

What impact would there be on their quality of life by not breeding?

If some of them are driven to breed so much so that they destroy themselves in the process of trying to find a mate.

[bcr229]

If some of them are driven to breed so much so that they destroy themselves in the process of trying to find a mate.

I've seen ball python males push during breeding season. I just don't think they're strong enough to hurt themselves.

Boas do rub or push and can mess up their faces or get nose bumps, but not on the same scale that retics do. The retics are so much stronger they can really hurt themselves a lot more.