Sad

[Highyeena]

This is the reason why I stopped following Cinnamon Toast Ken on YouTube, used to get excited when he got more snakes and even donated money during his Christmas stream, but when he got a spider and his wife talked about breeding it many others including myself tried to speak up asking they didn't, they made a video making us sound like we were stupid and trying to be mean.

Needless to say after that video I unsubscribed and was left with a sour taste.

Birth defects like those in dogs should NOT be bred. There's no, "Oh but they can still eat and blah blah blah" It still causes issues. In nature they wouldn't survive with such issues why the hell would you let them suffer or be allowed for show?

Another note, snakes cannot express distress an pain as well as dogs and cats can or many other animals. They can yelp, squawk and have obvious body language. Snakes can be run over by a car and drag themselves around for days before finally dying and if you saw them you'd just think "Huh, wow this snake is moving pretty slow and is being gentle!" with how sluggish it's being with a collapsed spine and internal bleeding.

[zina10]

I'm a huge animal welfare advocate, I spend a lot of money helping animals in need, I rescue (used to do snake rescue, now just mammals, since I'm paranoid for the safety of my own collection). I'm also incredibly OCD when it comes to the care of my animals. I educate when I can. I do not breed for profit, I've bred once, I most likely will again, I feel I have the experience and knowledge to do so after almost 20 years of dealing with Ball Pythons, keeping them, rescuing them, treating all kinds of medical issues in my rescues, dealing with and resolving feeding issues, etc etc. I will still not breed for profit, it is a passion and a hobby for me, and I'm grateful that I can do it this way.

So, All that out of the way.

Genetic issues in dogs (since we are using that example) are not birth defects. A lot of dog breeds have certain genetic predispositions to certain health problems (btw, so does every other species and humans as well, such is life) When you breed for a certain trait (color, breed, size, etc) you eventually will discover common genetic traits that run along those lines. You don't even have to do line or inbreeding, although they can make those traits more likely. German Shepherds have a genetic predisposition to degenerative myelopathy, certain cancers, pancreatic insufficiency, etc. Goldens have genetic heart issues. Some share hip dysplasia issues. Each breed has their own genetic health traits. Humans have many as well. In my family there is a lot of breast cancer. So does it make my mother irresponsible to have had me? And there are very, very few dog breeds out there that would survive in the wild. Same with just about any other domesticated pet AND livestock. By that logic (which is one of PETA's drive) we should have NO pets. NO livestock. Period. None. That is what they ultimately strive for, that is where it ends to breed anything. Because you can pick it all apart until you are left with...nothing.

Of course there are BAD breeders. Whether livestock, pets, reptiles. There are abusers. I'm not saying that there aren't. And they should be shut down and they should be punished.

All I'm saying is that one starts to question ethics, where does it stop? Breeding BP morphs with known genetic issue >> BAD. BP Morphs >> bad. Only normals >> good. Or is it?

I've been around when the morph craze just got started. And let me tell you one thing. For Ball Pythons it was actually the best thing that could happen. Before that you had nothing but imported animals that went through hell before they got here. I've seen them. You think its sad what you see some you tube videos that is a small percentage of BPs with genetic issues from a handful of morphs with genetic issues? Yes, it is bad, but those imports were just heartbreaking. And for each one that made it here, there were probably 10 that died before getting here. The ones that did make it this far were so stressed, so diseased, so parasite ridden and sick that most died after languishing on for a while in mostly inexperienced keepers homes.

Due to the morph craze we had people focusing on captive breeding. Due to it you have those numbers of captive bred Ball Pythons that didn't go through hell to get here, that weren't parasite ridden and sick and that were easier to keep. Even cbb can still be challenging at times, but that is nothing compared to what it used to be.

The entire reason you have this wide variety and availability is thanks to breeders. Yes, there are "mills" and people that flip animals as soon as they get them. Yes, there are tons of so called backyard breeders. But then you have a good number of awesome breeders. Of course they make a profit. And why shouldn't they? They put a lot of time and money into producing quality animals, that is not cheap. They deserve what they ask for. If we all just did it for fun, i can guarantee you that there would still be mostly imports, or prices would be sky high.

Like I said, I'm big into animal welfare. But knee jerk reactions can back fire. Everyone is against horse slaughter in the US and those animal welfare people finally got it to where those 3 slaughter plants shut down. I love horses. I spent 6000 on surgery on a old mare with no guarantee it would work. I hate horse slaughter. But closing down those plants was the WORST thing those people could have done for horses. The number of horses slaughtered have not at all gone down. Only now they get shipped to Mexico instead. Which is a trip from hell. The ones that survive that trip get slaughtered in the cruelest of manners, there are no regulations there. So how has that helped the horses? Ok, now they are trying to shut down being able to ship horses to slaughter. Great idea. But...what to do with the giant surplus of horses? They are very expensive to keep, no matter if the horse is a good one, bad one, sick one. They cost a lot of money every month. There are to many. And back yard breeders churn out more and more. At least there is a market for well bred ones, but not for the many others anymore. So now I drive through the country and see walking skeletons. People let horses loose. So what to do? Animal welfare people say, lets put them to sleep humanely. Ok, then you have thousands of HUGE bodies yearly to do what with? Bury the contaminated bodies? Can't be rendered either, due to drugs. Can't be fed to anything. Slaughter them for zoo animals? Oh, but we can't slaughter anymore. Shoot them and then what? I know this has NOTHING to do with snakes. It just shows that even well meaning actions can have bad consequences.

Some say, no more morph breedings, no more money making for breeders. Ok...so now that we all have those pretty animals we should shut it down? To bad for future keepers? Or..only have hobby breeders that don't make money because making money is bad? In a few years you won't be able to afford one, and good luck finding any. While hobby breeding is fun, to do it in any capacity costs a lot of money. If you never try to recoup any, you will not produce many animals just to give them away.

There are thousands of morphs. CBB animals that start life healthy and happy, so keepers can enjoy them and start their journey with a healthy animal. Some morphs have issues. Not that many. Of those morphs not all hatchlings have issues.

So while that is sad and terrible, its far from a widespread morph tragedy. If you bred ONLY normals, I tell you now, you would eventually find genetic issues in certain lines as soon as enough were bred to come to realize and recognize them. That's just a fact.

To the breeders that have made this hobby what it is, the ones that work hard and do it right, produce beautiful and healthy hatchlings, thank you ! I nor many others wouldn't have what we do, without you. And I'll gladly pay you for your time and work to do it right.

The ones that have no ethics, that is what the Board of Inquiry and the facebook inquiry for reptiles is for. So we can help each other to stay away from the scammers and bad apples in this industry.

Sorry for the long post, and please excuse grammar and spelling. I'm German and don't feel like proof reading, I just wrote it down as the thoughts popped into my head

[Bogertophis]

Yes I am one of those people that would go ballistic if I knew somebody was running a puppy mill. I guess I'm kind of getting to the point where I feel like there's ball python mills
A lot of animals are exploited for money...

Apart from the physical issues that some morphs have, the other problem I have with those of you breeding morphs is that your passion (and/or profit motives) are
creating WAY too many snakes that appear as "normals" or other undesirables that will NEVER have good homes. How can you even sleep at night? I couldn't. For
the same reason my dogs have always been from shelters...too many pets, not enough homes. What happens when you sell them off cheaply? They are throw-away
toys, in essence.

[zina10]

I, personally, sleep great.

I only bred this once, but to this day I get updates and emails, thanking me for those great animals. The new owners are thrilled. 3 of those ask me every so often if I have more, as they love their little ones.

There are many great breeders, do all animals end in a good home ? Nope. No matter who or where you buy them from OR adopt them from.

If the people that bred the animals shouldn't sleep well, neither should the ones that bought them. Which means pretty much all of us here. Because even the Normals that are owned, were CBB, most likely by people that also produce morphs.

And if we had people only producing Normals, if that is all we had, there would still be those that end up in homes not cared for, just the same.

Truly, if one walks down that road, it really should end up the way PETA wants. Just don't breed anything, period. There is always going to be some form of contention that can be found with any of it.

At this point I feel I have shared my viewpoint and opinion, and I realize that others have their own, and that is a good thing, whether we agree or not. It is starting to circle around though, so I thank everyone for their input, always good to see it from all angles, but now I bow out