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  1. #11
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    There are reptile vitamins available OTC, you can add to prey. There has long been the suspicion that feeding f/t rodents has fewer vitamins than fresh-killed,
    and I don't know of any official study, but it makes some sense. When I bred & rescued snakes, I added reptile vitamins to roughly every third meal...sure didn't
    hurt anything.

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  3. #12
    BPnet Senior Member artgecko's Avatar
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    I agree...It couldn't hurt to supplement her feedings with either injecting or stuffing some additional reptile vitamins inside the feeder rodents. You might as well give it a shot. Thank you for sharing this information!
    Currently keeping:
    1.0 BCA 1.0 BCI
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    1.0 Leachie 0.0.1 BTS

  4. #13
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    Re: Vitamin C deficiency in malnourished snakes - case study and progression with pic

    I don't like regular herp vitamins for rodent eating snakes. Because most of those vitamins have some sort of calcium compound added, which is unnecessary for rodent eaters. They get plenty of calcium in the bones. Bones have a good calcium to phosphorus ratio, which is thrown off if only calcium is added. Excess calcium is either eliminated in the feces (best case) or deposited in the snake's soft tissues (bad for the snake).

    Seems to me that elimination of vitamin C would be slower in snakes than in mammals. Snakes are very good at conserving water, too, which would minimize loss with the feces and urates.

    For what it's worth, I have supplemented various snakes' diets with a liquid multiple vitamin for cage birds. Mine was Avitron, made by Lambert-Kaye, one drop inside the belly of a dead rodent once or twice a month. I never saw any harm to the snakes. Any liquid multiple vitamin for adding to cage bird water should do the trick, though. This sort of vitamin should satisfy your vet's suggestion of a generalized vitamin deficiency (which I am inclined to agree with, sight unseen).

    I should also mention that years ago I was loaned an adult, wild-caught boa constrictor that had a spontaneous rupture of the skin when unpacked. He recovered over several months time with no vitamin supplements. Only good food and as little stress as I could give him.

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  6. #14
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    Re: Vitamin C deficiency in malnourished snakes - case study and progression with pic

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoons View Post
    This is a topic I really am finding very little information on, so I am starting this thread separate from my other progression thread to make it easier to find for future users who might need it. This first post will be a little long with a little backstory and then I will try to focus on treatment and progression of my current snake who I believe to be suffering Vitamin C deficiency.

    A while back on August 5th I adopted a rescue baby Ball Python from a chain pet store. I won't go into too much detail in that regard - that can all be read and followed on her thread I have going - just the relevant details here. I adopted her in August. She had not eaten anything but one pinkie in six weeks. She had, in that time, lost about 20% of her body mass - from 62 grams to 51 grams. She was, quite literally, skin and hanging flesh. It took another week for her to eat for me.

    One trait that was immediately noticeable was her skin was soft, and incredibly fragile - like a 90 year old human's skin might be.

    I have gotten her eating like an absolute rockstar, and she has progressed beyond what I ever would have hoped. I began taking her to steady vet care when I noticed large pockets of fluid underneath her skin, like huge blisters. My vet was baffled by it. She was put on antibiotics for possible sepsis, and when they didn't go away, fluid was drawn and tested. They found nothing remarkable - The fluid had nothing in it. There was 'one or two bacteria cells' they found under a microscope that they thought was skin contamination. A white blood cell or two. They sent it off for fluid analysis, which also showed nothing remarkable - no signs of infection, swelling, irritation, virus. They even said there was no point to a bacteria swab test because nothing would grow. My vet spoke with the other vets at the office, as well as the one vet who has been treating reptiles longer than he has been alive - and everyone was puzzled. I was given a few options for a cardiac stick for a blood test and declined, as my little snake - Hera - is improving leaps and bounds with every passing day.

    Hera shed the other week. While a lot of her skin, especially where she has filled out nicely, is seemingly back to 'normal' her midsection is still very soft and fragile. She split her skin open during shedding, and I came home to her bloody, scales ripped down to the lower layer but not all the way through - I am assuming it tore over one of the blisters. I have been treating it like a burn. A roughly two inch section of skin seems to have torn away from the lower layer but not torn from her body and is hardened up like a tough scab, I expect that will come free in a few day's time. She doesn't seem too bothered by it honestly, and has still been eating like normal.

    Well, the other day, I came across an article in Reptiles Magazine written by a vet about vitamin C deficiency in extremely malnourished snakes, which can cause issues such as spontaneous skin rupture with routine stretching (i.e. eating and shedding,) poor wound healing, blisters, and fragility. Well, ALL of that is EXACTLY what she is going through - and she was, indeed, incredibly malnourished when I got her. So I think I am nearly certain this is the issue. Treatment seems to be supplemented vitamin C (surprise!). Since snakes only eat weekly, daily supplementation via injection seems to be recommended (otherwise it will take a long time to get enough C to make up for the loss, with only eating weekly). Water supplementation may be an option, or injection supplementation via injecting it into the prey item you feed.

    however, vitamin C is a water-soluble vitamin and is not stored in the body. Instead your body depends on you taking in an adequate amount as needed, any excess you don't need and immediately use is passed as waste, so it's not like you can just bulk them up with more than the daily recommendation and expect that to work. it needs to be more frequent to be made readily available for reparation of the deficiency, as it will be slow.

    I believe the improvement I see in her skin is from the vitamin C she has been naturally getting with her food, however if I expect he to be in better shape by her next shed I'd better start some kind of supplement. I plan to bring her to my vet this coming week to see what he thinks.

    here are the four main sources of information I found, the first being the article in Reptiles Magazine that started it:
    http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Rept...-C-Deficiency/
    https://en.wikivet.net/Hypovitaminosis_C_-_Reptiles
    https://reptile-savvy.webs.com/nutritionanddisease.htm
    https://reptile-savvy.weebly.com/vitamin-c.html

    Here are some pictures of the progression so far. This first one was taken the day I bought her home, August 5th. notice her flesh is so loose it literally puddles underneath her onto my pinky finger. Lighting makes it hard to appreciate how baggy she is, she even had wrinkles on her neck and back of her head.




    This one is actually a few good meals after I got her, and is an improvement in her original condition, but shows her body condition better than the ones I took when I got her. Fresh from a soak to remedy lingering dehydration. Also the first time I started noticing fluid pockets. Taken September 4th.




    These next pics show her after her first shed. Both sheds with me have been singe piece sheds. The first shed, she had a little tiny hint of the red bruising you'll see later after the next shed, and a three scale sized tear that went to the muscle that closed up in a matter of days. This is to show how vastly she has been improving. Not perfect yet but HUGE progress. Also visible, some of the wrinkles mid-body from the (now empty post shed) blisters. These were taken September 30.





    here is a close up of the fluid pockets, the start of which is indicated by the red arrow. Taken October 30.




    Body condition picture, taken November 13




    This is how I found her after her second shed. The red is not loose blood but bruising, where the skin had torn away from the underlying tissue. Also where she has consistently had a fluid pocket. Pics taken December 5th.





    Pics a few days later showing healing progress. Taken December 10.




    And finally, the most recent picture. One just of her wound, and one where I highlighted the border of the tough, scabbing skin that will peel off in green because it can be a little hard to see if you don't know what you are looking for. The tip is starting to peel back as of today, and I am actually very pleased to find not raw wet wound underneath but more leathery healing skin. It does not bother her to poke at and surprisingly she does not seem to be in pain. Pics taken today, December 15.


    I have a ball python that is having the exact same issue as this one.
    took him to vet for the redness in his skin and it burst open while the vet was handling him. They attempted to glue the skin back in place and gave me Baytril to inject every 3 days. I agree with the vitamin deficiency. And will attempt to guy pack his food since vet will only do vitamin A injection. I’m curious as to how your snake has recovered since this is an older post??? Hopefully doing well??
    Last edited by bcr229; 07-09-2020 at 08:34 AM. Reason: closed quote tag

  7. #15
    BPnet Veteran Spoons's Avatar
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    Re: Vitamin C deficiency in malnourished snakes - case study and progression with pic

    She has recovered fantastically! I have more comprehensive updates in my other looong thread about her, but she's been rocking it. Her scars are fading, and she has moved to rat pups. I think she will be small all her life, though.

    She does still get a bit of a special shedding tank so she doesn't damage her skin. That seems to be taking the longest - it's quite a bit better and I'm not sure she needs it but I'm scared of coming home again and finding her bloody after a shed again. The skin condition is HUGELY improved, and slowly but steadily getting better still. I never had her wounds glued/sewn shut, but she did live in a quarantine tank for quite a long time while she healed up.

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

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  9. #16
    BPnet Veteran Spoons's Avatar
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    Re: Vitamin C deficiency in malnourished snakes - case study and progression with pic

    Also of note, in my other thread I have pics of the sheds following my last pic, where she tore away a sizeable chunk of her skin, as well as the healing progress. I can cross post them here once I'm on a computer to keep them all in the same thread

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

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    Re: Vitamin C deficiency in malnourished snakes - case study and progression with pic

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoons View Post
    Also of note, in my other thread I have pics of the sheds following my last pic, where she tore away a sizeable chunk of her skin, as well as the healing progress. I can cross post them here once I'm on a computer to keep them all in the same thread

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
    good to hear she’s healed up.
    my guy is refusing to eat at the moment, not sure if it’s the injury or the screwed up shed he’s going thru.
    the wounds seem to be scabbing over, very slowly but I guess something is better then nothing. Im trying to give him liquid vitamins from a dropper since he’s refusing food. Never had much luck finding vitamin c injections. Also bought this spray on vitamin thing to spray on his food before feeding.... could also be what’s discouraging him from eating. I’m concerned with him not eating since this incident was most likely brought on by malnutrition in the first place. He was severely underweight, like 97 grams, finally got him eating consistently for like 5-6 weeks and then the bruising opened up and hear we are.

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    Re: Vitamin C deficiency in malnourished snakes - case study and progression with pic

    Also, what exactly did you need to do to help her recover? Just regular feedings? Did you gut pack? Any advice at this point would be great. I hate seeing my guy like this.

  12. #19
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    Re: Vitamin C deficiency in malnourished snakes - case study and progression with pic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginger36 View Post
    I have a ball python that is having the exact same issue as this one.
    took him to vet for the redness in his skin and it burst open while the vet was handling him. They attempted to glue the skin back in place and gave me Baytril to inject every 3 days. I agree with the vitamin deficiency. And will attempt to guy pack his food since vet will only do vitamin A injection. I’m curious as to how your snake has recovered since this is an older post??? Hopefully doing well??
    Hi Ginger! I know your post is about a year old, but I'm wondering how your snake is doing? My girl is currently recovering from this same thing and if you still have questions or anything, I would be glad to help.

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

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