Thoughts on Hybrids?

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Are some hybrids amazing looking? Yes, would I own one? No but I have owned carpet intergrades which is slightly different but still have the same issues attached to them.

While the person breeding the first generation will likely be honest and upfront, down the road it’s a whole different story, because people either don’t know or don’t care and sadly some hybrids can breed and the trouble start after several generations when an hybrid start looking like something pure but is not and is being sold as such.

Ethics is the main problem and hybrids should be pets only sadly you cannot control that as there is too much temptations.

[Crowfingers]

I don't agree with any type of hybrid - of any species. It would be different if the species in question met and interbred naturally in the wild (like some warblers) but the grand majority are not animals that would encounter each other naturally. For example lion+tiger crosses often have growth issues where they continue growing well beyond what either species should. People that get the hybrid cats (savanna cats / oci-cats) think they are getting a cool looking domestic pet that then has a lot of the wild tendencies still intact - and they wind up being declawed and obese because they are too destructive and not meant to eat cat food.

Just because something is close enough related to breed does not mean it should be. The consequences are not well enough understood should the hybrid then get into a wild population, the people that can afford to buy them often have little knowledge about their care and needs, and many are 'culled' whether from defects at birth or later in life due to behavior issues (at least for many of the designer cat / wolf / coyote hybrids), the lucky few make it into rescues.

Just think for a moment - how many of the general public that spur of the moment decide to get a big snake do you trust with even correctly caring for a regular ball python or retic? What about a retic+burm+x python that has no growth regulation in it's genes and also could be a lot more grumpy than the base species are individually? How many of them would end up dumped out in the wild to die, or worse thrive? Or die of neglect from too small of enclosures and improper care?

It's just not worth it.

[Dianne]

While the animal itself is attractive, it isn’t something I would purchase. First because I think Angolans are gorgeous, so why mess with the pure animal? But as others have said, these animals aren’t from the same localities, so at least to some degree the husbandry wouldn’t be spot on. The ethics issue is a whole other can of worms, especially when animals leave the original breeder. Some folks may intentionally fail to disclose information, but much more likely would be someone who bought the animal not understanding what it was and later breeding it.

[distaff]

Mules have utility. There may be some other agricultural livestock that I can't think of at the moment that are justifiably crossed.

There is no utility in crossing an Angolan with a Royal. Long term, that just messes up the gene pool, and makes the whole captive population suspect. Genetic testing can probably reveal crosses (assuming good data on pure lines), but that is not something the average hobbiest is going to do for a while, at least. Habitats are shrinking, and export/import laws will become ever more restrictive. The only way these animals well remain available in captivity is with good breeding practices. True for captive bred fish and birds as well. There are numerous species in the fish hobby that are believed to be extinct in the wild (Select Aquatics, Greg Sage is a good source of info here, for the fresh water live-bearers). Many fish can cross. Single species tanks, or community tanks of unrelated fish are considered better practices.

If we want to keep them in the future, we have to protect their genetics now.

[Bogertophis]

My objections have already been well-covered by others here (thank you!) so just put me down as OPPOSED.

I was once given a hybrid (corn x king) snake...I kept it for a while but re-homed it. I see no point to doing these crosses...nature gets it right (what survives),
while humans just make a mess of things for all the wrong reasons. (ie. money & showing off) Muddying up the gene pool is not going on my conscience...to
me, this is disrespectful of nature: no matter how pretty an individual turns out, it doesn't end well in the long run (for the good of the species).

[zina10]

I agree with Mules being one of the good ones. But that is because they aren't made for fun, but for practical use. And they are sterile, so they will never muddy up any gene pool. I think there was one or two freak occurrence where a mule was able to breed, but those are rare exceptions that will cause no issues.

Wild Cats and Wolf hybrids I find sad. Truly sad. Most end up in bad situations and all the percentages and numbers mean absolutely NOTHING once you are past the first and second generation. I have seen vastly different pups in the same litter. They should all be the same, when it comes to "percentage". Yet they were anything but. There were a couple that looked very wolf like, and they had the temperament and traits to go with it from the get go. There were some that looked (and acted) pure dog. And then you had the in-between. Confused animals. Those numbers and percentages mean nothing when you are trying to figure out what that animals needs will be like, how it will need to be housed, its suitability as a pet or even what it will end up looking like.

So what if it works for some people? Usually it does because despite percentage, they ended up with a animal with very low wild animal traits and behaviors. Wolves and wild cats simply do not make good pets. Period. Its far harder to meet the needs of a wild cat, then a 6 ft. snake.

Wild cat hybrids often have severe digestion issues that neither of their pure parentage have. They also often have strange behaviors such as howling and yodeling at night, again, neither pure parentage does that. Many end up passed along and eventually put down. Some end up just "let free" which causes havoc on our native wildlife. Just look at the damage that feral cats have done. Throw some wild cats into that equation and see how much worse it can get.

Hybrids for the "fun, cool and profit factor" are just not a good nor ethical idea. IMHO.

[MR Snakes]

So...a Super Angry Royal is a 50% Angolan python, 25% Blood python, and 25% Ball python. The breeder put his male Angolan to a SuperBall (Blood x Ball) python he had to create this new hybrid.




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This just made my list

[Reinz]

Don’t know if this is called a Jungle Balls or a Bungle.



Jungle Carpet Python X Ball Python

[the_rotten1]

Personally, I don't see any problem with it. We already breed morphs, and some people breed for size or temperament. Hybrids open up new possibilities. It may not be natural, but a lot of the designer combos we make wouldn't happen or survive in the wild either. There's not much difference in my mind between breeding an albino bp with a pied bp and breeding a ball python with a blood python. It's just another way of making a good looking snake. They're all capitve animals anyway, so their ability or inability to exist in the wild is irrelevant.

I don't think people make them with the intention of contaminating the genetics of captive animals, though unfortunately that does happen. Mislabeling is a problem that there's no easy answer for. There's no database that keeps track of snakes and their genetics, but that's probably for the better. It would be easier for the government to ban certain species if they knew where they all were.

At the end of the day a pretty snake is a pretty snake. If someone wants a nice looking pet, what difference does it make whether it's a hybird or not?

[KevinK]

Rotten makes a good point I think, people already breed millions of ball pythons for selective colors/patterns for (sometimes) profit so I don't know why some would be concerned about the ethics of breeding hybrids suddenly. Do you think a panda pied was what nature intended when it comes to BP's? Look at it this way. Spider ball pythons and jaguar carpets are well known to have neuro issues, but the trade has kept them well alive and continued to breed them and several of you may in fact own them yourselves.

To me it's a weird stance to take if that's your concern but if I can not turn it into an ethical issue per se, I would stress the importance of keeping clean Angolans in the pet trade more than anything. They're getting surprisingly hard to find.