When do you know it’s time to go to the vet?

[Danger noodles]

He does look skinny. Have u tryed throwing in a live mouse? When I have a little one that I’m worried about I throw in a live mouse for a few feedings and then switch.

Also don’t turn people away by saying I didn’t ask about Husbandry. Because 99% of newbies that ask about a bp not feeding doesn’t have the correct setup. By him not hiding and staying out like u said, something is wrong. If u want help u need to be transparent and let us try and help u. The people on here won’t bash u or call u names like on most fourms. We are here to help ur noodle!!

So so being very specific plz tell us where the heat is and where the probe is located for ur thermostat. Also do u have an under tank heating pad? Is there a hide on top of it? Just try and describe everything u have done since buying the snake. What are u trying to feed it? How often, etc.

also once u have everything right this is a very easy snake to keep. Best wishes sent ur way!!

[Cheesenugget]

Have you tried housing him in a small tub (6 qt)? Cramped is key to security for them. Even with all that foliage, in our eyes it may appear enough. In his, he may not agree.

Babies prefer a bit lower temps and do better at around 86-88F. I had mine at 90F at the start as well and he was very active. Once I made my changes including switching to the 6 qt tub, he stayed in his hide and ate.

If he started out on live, stay live until he gain some weight.

I don't understand how you stated that you know it is stress related and yet you would submit him to further stress at a vet's office prior to double and triple checking your husbandry? Most stress are due to bad husbandry and insecurity. Taking it to the vet prematurely can prolong the fasting due to additional stress. That may eventually lead to assist feeding and that is another hurdle for the bp.

[Bogertophis]

Yes, if you offer food to a snake & he refuses, it's best to wait 5-7 days before offering again. Sometimes they're going into a shed cycle, which apparently
they know (& they can 'feel') long before we can see indications. And sometimes they refuse food for other reasons, but it works against your success to
"hound" them with food. That wouldn't happen in the wild either...remember we're dealing with an animal that relies on instincts...even though it's captive-
bred. For a snake to do battle with a rodent successfully it truly must be in the right frame of mind, not stressed or distracted by life in captivity.

Many times the WAY you offer food will scare them off from eating. Some snakes are bold hunters & don't mind a rodent that seems to come toward them, but
believe me, that wouldn't be normal in nature. Ball pythons are ambush predators- they sit & wait for food to come within reach, so you want to mimic that
event with your pet BP: use tongs to slightly wiggle prey so it appears to cluelessly walk past where your snake is (hopefully peeking out of his hide?), staying
just out of reach until you see the snake flick his tongue with interest. You can get a little closer then, but move the rodent at a right angle to the snake...you
want to elicit a bit of "chase". (when a snake is wandering in their cage, they won't usually accept food...there's something else making them restless)

And as I'm sure you know, BPs want their prey with life-like warmth...they use vision for motion, but to truly identify their prey they rely on scent & body heat.
It's a bigger challenge to get BPs on f/t rodents but with patience it can be done, & should be for safety. If you MUST offer "live", remember that in mice or
rats, the pinkies & fuzzies have eyes closed & won't bite back...hoppers & rat pups with eyes open DO bite in self defense. Sometimes the use of a helpless live rodent is needed with a BP: it can be used as an "appetizer", many snakes will then accept f/t immediately after taking a small live critter, or the f/t can be "chain-fed" carefully & patiently into the snake's still-open mouth, with the nose of the f/t following immediately behind the tail of the prey being swallowed.
But you have to be very subtle about doing this, otherwise most BPs will tense & curl their neck to avoid what you're trying to do.

[MissterDog]

Has he ever pooped with you? I still don't think a vet is necessary unless you suspect something is wrong like internal parasites, neurological damage or RI.

For something like not eating, I wouldn't take him to a vet because that will just stress him out more and make him less prone to eating. But if it will ease your worry you could ask to get a fecal done, which I think you can do without your ball python needing to be seen.

How are you offering f/t? Personally I think you're trying to switch too soon, but if the prey item isn't hot enough it doesn't have an enticing heat signature for them to go for. (Zinc this is your hairdryer cue :p) just make sure it's thoroughly thawed before warming it up. A living rat/mouse's body temp is close to 100F

If he doesn't eat on his next feeding you might have to consider offering live (or try prekilled) to make sure he eats, wait until he's eaten for you for 3 meals before trying to transition again. It's more important to make sure he's eating and gaining weight before trying to convert him to f/t as soon as you'd want.

But hopefully he will accept f/t next time! Fingers crossed for you!

Edit: also Bogertophis makes a good point about how you present the f/t

[udonsnoodle]

I'm sorry if I sounded rude when I said not to ask about husbandry. I understand that's probably the issue behind this, but that also wasn't my question. I've asked about this snake in a few different places and got satisfactory answers as to why he might not be eating, what might be stressing him out, what's wrong with my husbandry, etc, and I have or am currently in the process of making those fixes. My concern is that everyone seems to be avoiding the question of "exactly how worried should I be" and while of course I want to make my snake as comfortable as possible, given that he's underweight and hasn't eaten in a month, I'd like to know if there's a point where this becomes dire and I should seek professional help. Of course I'm aware that snakes can go long times without eating, but there has to be a limit somewhere, right? When should I be worried about starvation?

But thank you for your advice! My plan was to try a fresh killed mouse at his next feeding because I was warned multiple times to not give a snake live prey. I have two thermostats, one for an UTH and one for a CHE. The probes are between the bottom of the tank and the UTH, and directly under the CHE. I used to have the CHE over the UTH and kept it at 95, but I was informed that would just create one single very hot spot and the rest of his tank would be cool without a gradient so I moved the CHE to the center to create a higher ambient temperature (about 80) and kept the UTH on one side, now at around 90. My humidity also used to be low (45-50%) and it was a struggle to keep it up even with multiple water dishes, covering the top, etc until I started misting and keeping a wet towel on top and now I can keep it above 60%. I've now tried to feed him three times, each a week apart, f/t hopper mice. To prepare them I'd thaw them in the fridge all day and the first two I tried warming up in a bag in hot water, and the third I warmed up with a blow dryer until it was about 110 degrees. I did the whole wiggling them with tongs thing and left the third mouse overnight but he wasn't remotely interested. Other things I've done are spot cleaning, moving and adding hides/foliage, and cleaning his water dishes every other day.

Thank you very much for your help!!

[Stewart_Reptiles]

A vet is not gonna help for feeding issues, they don't quite understand how BP are when it comes to husbandry and food and most vet will wrongly jump the gun by doing things that should not be done.

Obviously the animal was eating before, if it is not eating now it's because it is basically telling you that you are not meeting it's need to a T, it's pretty typical with new animals and new owners and in 98% of the cases it is HUSBANDRY related.

I'm sorry if I sounded rude when I said not to ask about husbandry. I understand that's probably the issue behind this, but that also wasn't my question.

Basically what I read is I know what the problem is, but I don't really care about the proper solution and want to hear what I want to hear.......how is that working for you?

Sorry there is no magic pill and the vet is still not an answer, only your WILLINGNESS to answer question honestly and LISTEN to advice are the answer to your problem.

And by the way 3 months old BP are designed to be eating machine IF their needs are met.

[Bogertophis]

My concern is that everyone seems to be avoiding the question of "exactly how worried should I be" and while of course I want to make my snake as comfortable as possible, given that he's underweight and hasn't eaten in a month, I'd like to know if there's a point where this becomes dire and I should seek professional help. Of course I'm aware that snakes can go long times without eating, but there has to be a limit somewhere, right? When should I be worried about starvation? ....

You are missing the point...we cannot tell you if your snake is starving to death right now because we still haven't SEEN him.

We've already said that BPs DO FAST, but for us to know if yours is normal & OK right now, we'd have to be psychic & sorry, but we just aren't.

[udonsnoodle]

Sorry, these answers are coming in faster than I can respond haha. I really really appreciate everyone's help! I'm super anxious about this because I love this little guy and if I lost him I'd be totally crushed.

A lot of people have been asking about why I'd want to take him to the vet and the answer is that I read in critical situations the vet can force feed them. I know that's going to cause more stress and I know that that's a last resort. I just have no idea when that should come into play. This is (quite obviously) my first ball python and after tons of google searches I haven't found anything really spelling out when you know this is necessary or not.

But I guess since you all seem to be responding that taking him to the vet is ridiculous that answers my question! Thank you!

The rest of the situation is already resolved or being worked on. I've said it multiple times. I know that there were issues with his husbandry. I have either already fixed it or am fixing it. That wasn't the question, and I don't really appreciate the rudeness about it.

He did poop twice when he first came home. As far as I can tell he has no other health issues besides being underweight.

I'm going to try to feed him prekilled on Sunday, since that will have been 5 days since I last offered him f/t. As I said I definitely take the blame for trying to offer him f/t right away because I was misinformed and instead of searching for more information I just followed what I thought I knew.

I will lower his temperature. If this doesn't work I'll put him in a smaller tub.

I already gave a link to some pictures of him, but in case you couldn't see, here's my most recent picture of him, taken on Monday.


EDIT: I really want to reiterate that I've already gotten corrections about his husbandry from elsewhere. I am in no way attempting to ignore the problem, but most of what I'm hearing is information I've already heard and acted on. I definitely appreciate the advice regardless! But implying that I'm being negligent by saying that that isn't what I'm asking is really unhelpful. Thank you.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

A lot of people have been asking about why I'd want to take him to the vet and the answer is that I read in critical situations the vet can force feed them.

And last resort is when everything else has failed, you have not tried anything, and that would not be what would be done as last resort either.

You DO NOT FORCE FEED an animal that knows how to eat, that is what I was talking about when I mentioned vet do not know enough when it comes to BP behavior and jump the gun by resorting to do thing that are actually detrimental.

Again here is the solution https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101 it's simple and it works I have help troubleshoot hundreds of new owner and animals that way over the last decade.

EDIT: I really want to reiterate that I've already gotten corrections about his husbandry from elsewhere. I am in no way attempting to ignore the problem, but most of what I'm hearing is information I've already heard and acted on. I definitely appreciate the advice regardless! But implying that I'm being negligent by saying that that isn't what I'm asking is really unhelpful. Thank you.

I'll bite so describe your entire setup in details? And I mean details from how the hide fits to enclosure to substrate?

[WhompingWillow]

I understand that you've gotten husbandry advice elsewhere, whether FB, another forum, the breeder, etc. But in the majority of cases, husbandry and feeding well are so intricately linked that you can't really mention a poor feeder without talking husbandry. The people on this forum are incredibly knowledgeable and experienced. Try to keep an open mind.

As others have mentioned, taking a snake to the vet is a stressful process. When you have an already stressed and not obviously ill snake, a vet trip is likely to exacerbate the situation. And ultimately the root problem isn't going to be solved, which is more than likely related to husbandry.

A couple of questions I have that I don't believe have been addressed yet are whether your heat sources are controlled by a thermoSTAT, how you're measuring temps, and exactly how large of mice you're trying to feed. You said hopper, but what's the mouse weight compared to your BP? At this age you're aiming for 10-15% of the snake's bodyweight.