Yafe - Albino Carpet Progression Thread

[Bogertophis]

My hunch is that they will not want him back, they'll only try to offer you a partial refund of his original price, & they're already saying they won't cover his
medical care so far since you didn't check with them first. I'm so sorry, this is truly lousy on their part, & as zina10 said, very commendable on yours.

[AbsoluteApril]

I agree that if he was mucusy with bubbles that isn't something that shows up in 2 days. I think the trip to the emergency vet was overkill and unnecessary and I can see how the seller won't want to pay for those fees. I do think a vet trip was necessary, don't get me wrong... you obviously are very worried about your new charge. Usually bumping up the heat while waiting for the vet visit is rather standard from what I understand (haven't had to deal with an RI in almost 20 years *knock on wood*) but that's a moot point now since you already did the emergency situation. Yes emergency vets are very high priced (over $1500 on one of my cats before). I was a bit taken aback by so many photos over the first two days as that is a bit much for a brand new snake that should be left alone but I wouldn't think that would be the cause for the RI to progress so much and that would be a silly thing to blame this on IMO.

Was there no heat pack? That is something I do not understand! Especially with the long fedex delay, all of that is not good.

I hope the seller is willing to work with you and I hope for a fast recovery for Yafe.

[zina10]

I have to say, I agree with April as well. While a Vet visit was obviously in order, you could have probably waited until this morning. Emergency Vets charge a morbid amount of money just for walking in the door. However, sometimes it is a matter of life and death and it cannot wait.

In your case there is really nothing an Emergence Vet could or would do at night. They only perform life saving procedures right away. Diagnostics and tests beyond that aren't done until next day and sometimes get referred to the regular Vet. I do not think that the breeder will offer compensation for the high bill of a Emergency Vet. Honestly, I doubt they will offer much compensation period, but that remains to be seen.

All that said, I can see why you reacted the way you did. Seeing an animal in distress is not fun and our first instinct is to help, and to help NOW. So do not beat yourself up over this. You have to remember, when it is your OWN animal, you always react differently. It is easy for us to say what the rational thing would have been. I am the "colic specialist" when it comes to horses and when someone needs help with their horse I'm calm, helpful and do what is needed. But when it is my own horse? When she so much as lays down and looks funny? Panic settles in, my brain turns to mush and its hard to think clearly.

I also agree that handling should have been kept to absolute minimum aside from the first checkup. If you had to remove him for cleaning, I would have just put him into a dark bag, cleaned the cage and returned him. Also blacking out the sides and back of the enclosure, making it as calm/quiet and dark and non exposed as possible. But again, what you did did NOT cause this issue. So don't feel bad about that. A healthy animal would have been able to get over it. This is just some advice should you get another animal. Its always best to let them recover in complete privacy after shipping, aside from a quick peek couple times the day, making sure they are alright.

I'm not sure why there was no heat pack, what were the temps from where he came from ? The Hub at which he changed flights ? The destination ? If temps were mild, then a heat pack can cause more issues then it helps. However, it can get quite cold on those flights as well, I'm not sure if the animals shipped through Fedex are kept in a temperate area of the plane. Most likely he got quite cold at some part of the journey. Getting a bit cold is often viewed as safer then being overheated which quickly causes neurological damage. Usually the time in transit is kept so short (from afternoon to next morning) that its not an issue, but if there are delays, temps or heat-packs can make a big difference.

Again, don't beat yourself up, you didn't cause this. All you can do at this point is try to sit down, try to clear your head, and think it through very well on how you would like to proceed. Go through all the possibilities, go through all the maybe's and what if's. Decide what you would like to do. Whether the breeder or owner will help out, time will tell, but it isn't something I would count on at this point..

Good luck, my thoughts are with you during this difficult time.
Don't forget to take care of yourself's either, during this stressful time.

[Phillydubs]

Guys, while I know we all want to help and provide input I really don’t see how throwing in your two cents on what vet he went to and when is helping this situation at all...

very easy to tell someone what to do when playing viewer from afar...

yes dave is my buddy and I feel terrible about all this but I think I would react the same way towards any member, doesn’t matter if I know them or not.

You also don’t know all the facts or logistics of the situation. Such as the fact that the only other trusted reptile vet is twice the amount of time away and on a path where Much construction is occurring so that option may have caused even more issue.

Im not going to go on an on but unless you have something worth sharing to help the situation sitting back and playing arm chair quarterback helps no one. The guy took pics of his brand new animal the day he got him home? Who doesn’t do that. If that’s a crime guilty as charged. What does the number of pictures have to do with anything. You can take 100 pics in 20 seconds. Not like the dude had ten costume changes and was all over the place with him. He removed the animal when it lit up its tank with feces. Had he left it alone maybe the snake would be worse off and in real bad shape or dead.

If he didn’t go to a vet he’d be getting bashed for that. Everyone’s a critic.

I say keep things constructive and positive or keep it to yourself.

[zina10]

Philly,

In case you are referring to me, I certainly didn't try to play armchair quarterback or criticize. I brought up the Emergency Vet in regards to the breeder most likely not being willing to cover the emergency fee, as they will claim it wasn't a life/death situation. However, imho they should pay what the usual cost of a vet visit would be in such a case!

I also brought it up because Tufts is a learning hospital. Much like the one I used for my horse (Auburn). They have state of the art equipment, they are staffed around the clock. They are a expensive BUT absolutely excellent choice. However, from my own experience it is important to insist (through constant communication) that all of the more complicated procedures are not only supervised but performed by the experienced and practiced Veterinarian on duty. They often only supervise while letting the students practice. After all, that is how they learn. Daksi did ask for that, but since there is different staff at different times, and it is usually quite busy there, it helps to be in constant contact and to remind them of your requests a couple of times the day. This wasn't meant to be critical, but rather to give a heads up.

As for the handling, I don't feel anyone blamed Daksi for anything. No-one said anything he did could have caused that poor boy to get so sick, so quick. But that its best to keep handling to an absolute minimum after shipping, while checking in on the animal and performing bare necessities, of course.

I'll say again, I wish only the best for Yafe and his owners and that this can get resolved to their satisfaction.

[Bogertophis]

..... Everyone’s a critic. I say keep things constructive and positive or keep it to yourself.

I think that we all have been both sympathetic & constructive...no one is "bashing" anyone here & your suggestion that we are is not helping either. It's horrible to see
a snake gasping to breathe...I don't blame Dave for wanting immediate help, & who knows what we'd have done in his shoes? As you said, he chose the quickest help.

NO one said that taking photos "caused" the RI, & no, NOT "everyone" does that but it's certainly encouraged on forums like this. That doesn't make it a "best practice".
The seller brought that up and I commented about the issue because it gives the seller "ammunition" to deflect blame from himself (as it appears he is trying to do). We
all need to think about that when we buy online, so by reading this thread maybe others will be forewarned that it can backfire in a similar situation.

The guaranteed way not to have comments about a sad situation like this is to not put it online...when you do, comments are going to happen, & some you'll like more
than others, but this is a bit like a family here and the idea is to learn from each other's experiences. I can only imagine what a horrible night it's been for Dave, Katie
and Yafe most of all. My sincere hope is for a full recovery & better cooperation from the seller.

[AbsoluteApril]

Philly, I don't know if you were addressing me; I was trying to offer an outside perspective regarding the seller's push back since it appears Dave is about to get into a back and forth with the seller. Apologies if my opinion was unwelcome but this is a public forum after-all. I felt I was constructive and do wish the best for the snake's recovery.

[dakski]

First, I did get another response from the breeder. Again, posted here Verbatim.

Hi David,

when you have had the time to get some sleep and relax a bit, please read my email again. I am sitting here a couple thousand miles away and all I can do at this point is asking you questions and letting you know what I would do back here in Germany if it was me. My questions were not supposed to attack you or suggest you are doing things wrong.
My questions were supposed to understand the situation and help to make it better. This is also not supposed to be a pissing match about who is keeping reptiles for how long or similar. I have bred thousands of Carpet Pythons and currently have 852 here around me, but that has nothing to do with your situation. I am not better because I have more Carpets or anything like that. All I can say is that I have never ever seen something like what you describe, a RI that would escalate so quickly. That being said, it doesn’t mean that this is not possible or happening to you right now. I will need to talk to XXXX and find out what his impression on the snake was when it left the shop and also find out why he decided to not use a heat pack in this case.
I have seen mucus that was caused by bedding or similar stuck in their mouth. I have seen snakes with an RI with mucus and bubbles and they were ok without treatment. That is why I was suggesting to leave it alone and see what’s going on, if its severe or not.
Again, I am thousands of miles away and cannot decide if it’s bad or not, I haven’t seen the snake in person. That’s why I am asking questions and suggesting things. A treatment like you described would costs anything between 100-200 USD here in Germany. I know that vets/docs in general are CRAZY expensive in the U.S.
so it absolutely makes sense to double check if the vet is needed or not. You say it is, so I am sure it was the right decision now.

If something went wrong on our side, what I don’t know at this point, we will have to find a solution to make up for it. But you need to understand my position and why I have to ask questions, ask for pics and all that stuff. I will need documentation including pics of the animals being treated and also documents from the vet.
If this whole thing goes wrong and the animal dies, I will need pics or a video of the dead snake. Let’s hope this does not happen! But you have to understand that I can’t send refunds or anything just because a customer says a snake is sick or dead.
I don´t know you, I have not seen the animal for a while and all I can do is read and answer your emails.

Again, I am very sorry to hear this and definitely want to help you, so please let me know when you hear back from the clinic, as I will as soon as I have talked to Adam.

Thanks so far and have a good night now!

[dakski]

I appreciate everyone's feedback.

To be clear, aside from the initial handling the night I got him to ensure he was alive and doing ok, etc., I took him out the next only because he crapped and I wanted to clean it. He came out yesterday because he didn't sound good and had his head up agains the tank wall trying to get comfortable. It was obvious he was sick.

Regarding ER vet pricing. It was an extra $180 to show up the emergency vet. The costs for the tests and treatment were similar to what I would pay at my exotics vet 2 hours from my house. Not many options here.

I believe you guys are not blaming me, and agree that handling too much when an animal arrives is silly. However, given the circumstances and my concerns, I feel if I had just "left him alone" he might not be here in the future.

Regarding temperament, Zina10, I hope he stays chill as can be. He has supposedly been like that for a while. However, who knows.

Deborah, I have the same concerns. However, I have him now and I cannot send him back in this condition, in good conscience anyway. I am at a loss and don't know what to do frankly. However, I feel I need to help him get better now.

I will keep everyone in the loop and I am waiting to here back from the vet this afternoon.

Thank you again.

David

P.S. Phillydubs is my buddy and has been very close to me and the situation. He's a good guy and is trying to protect me. I can see how the comments could be misconstrued and also that you are all trying to be constructively critical and help others learn from this experience.

[dakski]

Yafe is home and diagnosed with a bacterial RI, but we will know 100% when the culture comes back in 5-7 days.

In the meantime, he is to get 10 doses of Ceftazidime, 2.4ml, inter muscular injection, over the next 30 days. One every three days. He had his first tonight, with me holding him and Katie administering the injection. Katie did great and so did Yafe.

I am confident we will get him back on track ASAP. No food, no (unnecessary) handling, etc. until he is better. I can offer food in 2 weeks, or sooner, if he's feeling better. However, regardless, he gets the medicine for 30 days unless the culture shows he needs a different antibiotic or an anti-fungal instead, or in addition to.

He is also staying on strict quarantine, as he was, for the next 90 days, as planned. He is handled, injected, fed, etc. last and has his own hook, tongs, hides, etc. There is no interaction between him, or his tools, with any other animal in the house. As before. Additionally, clothes will be changed if for some reason, another animal needs to be handled/touched, etc. after exposure to Yafe.

The vet clarified a few things.

1. She said he could have gotten sick from the stressful trip. However, she was upset he was shipped without a heat pack and that there was a delay. Both likely contributed. She is open to the idea he was not well when shipped, but is not convinced that was the case and has no way to prove it, so no pointing fingers.

2. She unequivocally said, NOTHING I DID CAUSED THIS. I described when the symptoms came on and how fast and what I had done RE handling, etc. She says I am 100% not to blame. She thinks it's good I brought him in when I did.

The only other things bothering me is the flailing around and sudden and jerky movements from him. After the shot, I went to move him back to his tank and he exhibited this behavior again. He did not do it on day one. He did on days 2 and 3 and I attributed it to him being very uncomfortable. I know Carpet's can have neurological issues, but usually it's the Jaguars. He supposedly had no issues of that type. I am assuming it will clear up as he feels better, but I am anxious about that.


Finally,

I appreciate everyone's support here. I am aware of the "hindsight" comments posted here (not pointing fingers, but addressing what Phillydubs was trying to combat). I think they serve a purpose for other keepers and for another perspective on a go forward basis. I do not take offense and think people were worried and doing their best to be helpful (I've known many of you for a long time now and understand your good intentions; your track records speak for themselves). I have kept reptiles for over 20 years and this was exceptionally worrisome. Everyone I know jokes about how meticulous I am with temps, humidity, cleanliness, etc. I don't know how else to keep reptiles and having one get that sick, that fast, scared me. Think of this from my perspective, being a caring reptile owner, and not wanting to see an animal suffer, or get worse.

For what's worth, I have zero regrets, even I get stuck with the bill. If Yafe recovers and is a happy, healthy, snake for a long time and has a great life with me and Katie, I will be incredibly happy with how this situation was handled.

I would also appreciate the recognition that I am big contributor on this site and a) do my best to help all keepers in need and b) still ask questions after years of reptile keeping because there is always more to learn/know.