Producing Double Hets....

[daniel1983]

I was wondering what some of ya'll take is on producing double hets. I know the best route to go would be to breed two homozygous animals together and produce all 100% DHs....but if all you have is hets and no homozygous animals and your long term goal is to produce a double homozygous ball python...

....Is it just a waste of time to breed two different hets together to produce babies that are 25% possible of being DH (50% poss. het for each trait)?

...Would it be better to try to produce at least one homozygous ball python first... then breed a homo. of one trait to the a het of the other? or wait until you have two different trait homozygous ball pythons to breed together?

....so basically, what I am asking is....if your final goal was to produce a double homozygous ball python...you had no ball pythons and all you had money for was to purchase hets....how would you go about reaching your final goal???

[bait4snake]

It's hard enough for someone to produce a double homozygous animal using two double hets, so I wouldn't waste my time breeding, say, a het albino to a het piebald. Having a 50% Het Albino/50% Het Piebald would be great if you already had an Albino Piebald or an Albino and Piebald to breed it with. Otherwise, it would take way too many years of trial and error just to find out if you have a pair of double hets.
I, like most people, have grand dreams in this hobby. Sometimes sticking to basics and not getting greedy is the best way to go. You could be producing your own albinos and piebalds with hets and selling them (or keeping them) in the time it takes to prove out a bunch of 50% hets, and making no money.
Don't miss out on a great opportunity to really establish yourself or to invest in a sure thing. Be happy with a pair of Het Albinos or Het Piebalds. In a few years, once you already have your own Albinos and Piebalds, make your own 100% Double hets. This hobby takes time and patience and PATIENCE. Don't give in to that temptation, because it's hard enough for someone with experience and a lot of expensive animals to do it right, let alone someone having a large group of possible possible possible hets left over after trial and error breeding. Your local pet shop may like having a lot of extra ball pythons on hand, but you won't. Nor could you afford to feed them all.

[daniel1983]

....just to clairify....don't get me confused with a greedy person that is trying to make a quick buck in the ball pythons business...I am in this for the hobby....

This is all just a fun time for me...I will get there eventually....I was just wondering which way would be best for someone with the limited finances and a small collection...

i was planning on picking up a het pied male next season. I definately can't afford a het pied female so producing possible hets is the only option for me. I was thinking of trying to breed him to the little het hypo girl(she will be at least a year old when the het pied male hatches) that I have and producing some 25% possible DH hypo-pieds....I would be raising all the females from that clutch anyway in search of a female het pied, so why not put the hypo trait in the mix....By the time the female 25% possible DH hypo-pieds are large enough to breed....I will probably have a male hypo and I will still have the het pied male to run through those 25% possible DH hypo-pied females...if I can prove one to be DH that will be cool....if not, maybe a few of the females will prove to be het for hypo or het for pied...

I was just trying to get everyone's input....

[kraniumz]

Interesting topic.

IMO breeding homos first should be the first priority. You have more options once you have a homo of each type. From there you can produce guaranteed hets and cut down the trial and error.

On the other hand, you may also get lucky with breeding the hets. But you can never really know until you prove them out, which can take ages and lots $$.

I still prefer breeding homo first as you get to produce other traits whilst trying for the double homo.

[Joe_Compel]

....Is it just a waste of time to breed two different hets together to produce babies that are 25% possible of being DH (50% poss. het for each trait)?

Lots of people will tell you it is a waste of time but I don't think it is. If you don't have the money to pay for the homozygous morphs necessary to create true double hets, then you could take the long road.
You could breed two hets to produce possible double hets. I would hold back the females and repeat this type of breeding to accrue a significant group of females. Do the hard work and get them up to size.
At this point, assuming prices have dropped in the years it took you to raise the females and assuming you can afford the snakes, you can do a few things: you can acquire a true double het male, you can acquire the homozygous morphs, or you can acquire the double homozygous morph. Use these animals to breed to your possible double het females.......your odds of producing the designer morph you are after will increase.....if you had a bunch of possible double hets, I bet one or more will prove out.
If, after raising the possible double het females, you don't have the coin for the aformentioned options, you can breed the het males or a hold back possible double het male to the females......you are bound to produce some kind of morph!

[daniel1983]

Thanks for the input Joe! That was kinda what I was thinking. Glad to hear someone that does not think it is a 'bad' idea.

I was also considering this because I don't plan on keeping tons of bps anytime soon....just a smaller collection(for now)...I figured that raising up 1 or 2 groups of PDH female would be a great way to 'keep the numbers down' but would still give me the breeding stock that I want. Also, I would not be wasting my time on raising normal females since I am mainly interested in recessive traits.....all the babies from that pairing would have 75% chance of being het for one or the other. That is alot better odds IMO.

The only downfall that I see is that I am basically wasting a chance at producing a homozygous animal by breeding het A to het B....but I dont mind waiting to produce something visual

[RandyRemington]

Of course the ideal way to keep your collection small would be to buy a single pair of for sure double hets but that isn't an option for most. Producing and keeping possible double het females is the only option for me but I've drawn the limit at 5 and will give the other 4 away to a friend with a similar project. They aren't a particularly valuable double het project and it's a lot of work and expense to raise up girls.

I do agree with your way of looking at them as low probability normals rather than long shot double hets. I think people are scared off the triple and quadruple het projects by looking at the glass as half empty and the long odds of producing a multi homozygous animal rather than the decreasing odds of producing normals.

[RandyRemington]

Also since you are interested in a piebald cross you may have the advantage of using the piebald het marker to increase your odds. If you get a male het piebald with a strong marker I would bet that his daughters that also show a strong marker have a much higher than 50% chance of being hets. If you produce more than you want to raise keep the markered ones and sell the others as normals. Then you mainly need to worry about if they hit their 50% chance of being het albino.

[Adam_Wysocki]

the advantage of using the piebald het marker

Classic! ... LMFAO!

-adam

[ddbjdealer]

Classic! ... LMFAO!

-adam

Most het pieds also have signs stapled to them between their 4th and 8th subcaudal scales. You have to look close though. Some may require a magnifying glass.


DISCLAIMER: I am joking! To all of you looking at your poss hets and normals with a magnifying glass... look closer!