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View Poll Results: Would you buy a Spider morph?
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
Originally Posted by rufretic
I don’t know about the genetics behind it but based on my experience with breeding a spider with no signs of wobble, I would say it is not just random. She laid 7 healthy eggs which all hatched, 6 out of 7 being spider combos. Not one of them showed any signs of wobble. If it was random, I have to think at least one of her offspring would of had some wobble. This year will test the opposite because I am breeding the girl I have that does the corkscrewing. If her offspring do it as well, I think it will be pretty obviously that the severity of wobble in offspring is directly related to the severity of wobble in the parent. If this does prove out, I personally won’t be breeding any more spiders that show wobble but will continue to breed the spiders that do not show signs of wobble.
My spider dam (pictured earlier in the thread) has a moderate wobble while her hatchlings have shown little to no wobble so far. Just one example, but it confirms with what I've heard from other breeders. The wobble is said to be random. You can produce a low wobble spider from a high wobble spider and visa versa. That said, really bad wobble seems rare. I've never heard of a spider hatchling fail to thrive solely because of wobble. Here's a good read on it: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php
The worst cases I've heard of seem to happen after the snake leaves the breeder. And while I'm sure there are a variety of reasons why, I don't think we can rule out the effects of stress. Some wobblers seem to get worse with age, and others seem to get better, but stress will always make a wobble worse. Most of the "bad wobblers" I've seen and heard about were either subjected to stress specifically to show the wobble, or they were kept in glass tanks with questionable husbandry. Not all, but it seems to be a common thread among really severe cases.
As a breeder, I understand and accept that the amount of wobble my hatchlings may have is out of my control, and that it's possible that if I bred spider to spider (not something I plan on doing) it may result in dead hatchlings (it doesn't always, but it has happened to some). That said, I've had more issues with thermostat malfunctions than I have had with the spider gene. I don't regret breeding my spider girl. Her hatchlings are healthy and beautiful and I'm proud of them. If she regains all her weight, I plan on breeding her again next season.
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
Been thinking about this thread all week and it just makes me realize how little we know about ball python genes in general. We know how to express colors and patterns, but there is so much more to learn.
Ethics aside for now, this is really just a musing - it would be such a valuable experiment to see what exactly these wobble genes do (in spiders, womas, champagne, etc). especially in the "fatal" combos. The why's of the genes, not just the observable side.
Of course it would require someone dedicate their time to a collection of breeding adults of these morphs in enough numbers to have a good sample size, breed them, incubate eggs that may not ever produce viable young, and have access/assistance from both an embryologist and a genealogist that specialize in reptile development. The failed embryos would have to be necropsied and compared to healthy embryos in the same developmental stage to discover if they were progressing at the correct rate and with the correct parts. I have no idea how much that would all cost lol -
Maybe the gene that causes 'super spiders' to fail is linked to heart or liver/kidney development, maybe the wobble itself is not a gene at all but is a side effect of a gene that prevents correct myelin sheath formation/function? Maybe all of these genes that cause the combos to fail have something developmental that causes the eggs to be slugs in the first place. If the spider gene occupies the same place in the sequence as the champagne gene, maybe there's something else on that sequence that is key to survival. There would just be so much to discover.
This is just the scientific side of my brain wondering about stuff too complex for me to really understand. Also, man what a depressing and time consuming experiment that would be...I have no idea what producing non-viable eggs over time can do to a female, but I assume any egg production is hard on their bodies.
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
Originally Posted by Crowfingers
Been thinking about this thread all week and it just makes me realize how little we know about ball python genes in general. We know how to express colors and patterns, but there is so much more to learn.
Ethics aside for now, this is really just a musing - it would be such a valuable experiment to see what exactly these wobble genes do (in spiders, womas, champagne, etc). especially in the "fatal" combos. The why's of the genes, not just the observable side.
Of course it would require someone dedicate their time to a collection of breeding adults of these morphs in enough numbers to have a good sample size, breed them, incubate eggs that may not ever produce viable young, and have access/assistance from both an embryologist and a genealogist that specialize in reptile development. The failed embryos would have to be necropsied and compared to healthy embryos in the same developmental stage to discover if they were progressing at the correct rate and with the correct parts. I have no idea how much that would all cost lol -
Maybe the gene that causes 'super spiders' to fail is linked to heart or liver/kidney development, maybe the wobble itself is not a gene at all but is a side effect of a gene that prevents correct myelin sheath formation/function? Maybe all of these genes that cause the combos to fail have something developmental that causes the eggs to be slugs in the first place. If the spider gene occupies the same place in the sequence as the champagne gene, maybe there's something else on that sequence that is key to survival. There would just be so much to discover.
This is just the scientific side of my brain wondering about stuff too complex for me to really understand. Also, man what a depressing and time consuming experiment that would be...I have no idea what producing non-viable eggs over time can do to a female, but I assume any egg production is hard on their bodies.
Honestly, I was thinking about this too, and doing more research, the topic of "Super Spider" is still highly controversial. From what i'm reading here and there, its generally considered "fatal", but some people are claiming that they have done it and the babies survived. There isn't really any proof to back these up.
If there is a Super Spider that can live, like the "Pearl" that miraculously survived a long time ago, it hasn't been bred yet. This could be because it is an actually fatal combo, or is such a rare chance that we aren't breeding it enough to get one, for the fear of the first reason.
It would be interesting if someone could actually do what you are saying, like track the development of the embryos, and maybe fix and allow a super to exist? My only worry is a "Super" of a wobble gene may not end too well... (Look at HGW x HGW)
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
Originally Posted by Slicercrush
Honestly, I was thinking about this too, and doing more research, the topic of "Super Spider" is still highly controversial. From what i'm reading here and there, its generally considered "fatal", but some people are claiming that they have done it and the babies survived. There isn't really any proof to back these up.
If there is a Super Spider that can live, like the "Pearl" that miraculously survived a long time ago, it hasn't been bred yet. This could be because it is an actually fatal combo, or is such a rare chance that we aren't breeding it enough to get one, for the fear of the first reason.
It would be interesting if someone could actually do what you are saying, like track the development of the embryos, and maybe fix and allow a super to exist? My only worry is a "Super" of a wobble gene may not end too well... (Look at HGW x HGW)
There is a research paper about it on researchgate or something, but not a member so could read the full thing.
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As of July, 31st, 2018... (I think)
1.0.0 - Albino Pastel Black Pastel Pinstripe -384g ('18)
1.0.0 - Albino Candy - Candino ('17)
1.0.0 - Super Pastel Butter ('18)
1.0.0 - Pastel Calico - 735 ('16)
1.0.0 - Lesser Pastel - 1344g ('16)
1.0.0 - Black Pastel - 1680g ('15)
1.0.0 - Mojave Mystic - Mystic Potion ('16)
1.0.0 - Spotnose Spider
1.0.0 - Black Head ('16) |
0.1.0 - Lesser ('14)
0.1.0 - Orange Dream Pastel Spider - 453g ('17)
0.1.0 - Pied ('17)
0.1.0 - Pastel Black Pastel Spider ('16)
0.1.0 - Hypo Enchi Butter - 310g (‘17)
0.1.0 - Leopard (‘17)
0.1.0 - Orange Ghost ('16)
0.4.0 - Dinker YB ('17/18)
0.1.0 - Pinstripe Spider - Spinner ('18)
0.1.0 - Fire YB Brownie - 148g ('18)
0.1.0 - Columbian Red Tail Boa ('18)
0.1.0 - Pastel -1 544g ('15)
0.1.0 - Yellow Belly (rescue) ('13)
0.1.0 - Wild Type ('16)
0.1.0 - Spinner
0.1.0 - Spinner ('18) |
0.0.1 - Pinstripe Spider - Spinner ('17)
0.0.1 - Wild Type (rescue) ('?)
0.1.0 - Dinker ('18)
0.0.1 - Spinner ('17)
All to probe when I find the time. |
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
I've done lots on interweb scrounging on the whole spider to spider thing myself and I've seen a lot of people saying that only the super spiders will die. I have never personally tried it but NERD says that spider to spider is fine. I watched a Olympus Reptiles video here a while back and he was saying that he had saw a video of a super spider that actually made it to full term and hatched but it died later on. I'll have to go rewatch the video and see if I can catch a name or a link to the video he was talking about.
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
Sorry but this stuff kinda reminds me of the Nazis and their experiments... Very macabre.
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
Originally Posted by Spechal
There is a research paper about it on researchgate or something, but not a member so could read the full thing.
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Do you know the title of the paper? I found one called "Neurological dysfunction in a ball python (Python regius) colour morph and implications for welfare" but unfortunately it didn't really get into the mechanics of how spider works.
For anyone curious who can't access the paper, it was actually pretty similar to the discussion in this thread! Here's part of the discussion and conclusion sections, which gives an overview of what was covered:
"Clinical signs of the wobble condition are indicative of a central nervous system disorder. Although prevalence of the condition among spider morphs remains unclear, with many experts stating that all are affected, there is consensus thata minority are severely affected in their ability to perform species-appropriate behaviours, relative towild-type, captive pythons. No data are available on longevity of these morphs, given the relatively recent discovery of the spider morph in ball pythons, a species recorded to reach 47.5 years. Although breeders generally agreed that quality of life was not significantly affected, 89% (25/28)of welfare scientists concluded a moderate to high welfare effect based on the information available.This disparity may reflect biases inherent in the respective groups."
"The strength of the herpetocultural industry is in its community of enthusiasts, closely connected by web-based media. It is self-evident from a review of such media that most herpetoculturists care greatly for the health and welfare of their companion animals and/or breeding stock. This aspect of horticulturist community should be supported and used to fuel further research into the welfare consequences of heritable disorders in reptile species, effectively disseminate findings, and improve self-regulation by community leaders."
Let me know if anyone wants any more of the paper posted. Honestly it was very similar to this thread and if you know about spider you probably could have written a lot of it. Besides the background info on spider, they surveyed both breeders and welfare scientists on their opinions about the behavior/health/ethics of spiders. So basically the peer reviewed version of this thread haha.
edited to fix the spacing on one of the quotes
Last edited by fieldfare; 06-10-2018 at 05:46 PM.
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
As of July, 31st, 2018... (I think)
1.0.0 - Albino Pastel Black Pastel Pinstripe -384g ('18)
1.0.0 - Albino Candy - Candino ('17)
1.0.0 - Super Pastel Butter ('18)
1.0.0 - Pastel Calico - 735 ('16)
1.0.0 - Lesser Pastel - 1344g ('16)
1.0.0 - Black Pastel - 1680g ('15)
1.0.0 - Mojave Mystic - Mystic Potion ('16)
1.0.0 - Spotnose Spider
1.0.0 - Black Head ('16) |
0.1.0 - Lesser ('14)
0.1.0 - Orange Dream Pastel Spider - 453g ('17)
0.1.0 - Pied ('17)
0.1.0 - Pastel Black Pastel Spider ('16)
0.1.0 - Hypo Enchi Butter - 310g (‘17)
0.1.0 - Leopard (‘17)
0.1.0 - Orange Ghost ('16)
0.4.0 - Dinker YB ('17/18)
0.1.0 - Pinstripe Spider - Spinner ('18)
0.1.0 - Fire YB Brownie - 148g ('18)
0.1.0 - Columbian Red Tail Boa ('18)
0.1.0 - Pastel -1 544g ('15)
0.1.0 - Yellow Belly (rescue) ('13)
0.1.0 - Wild Type ('16)
0.1.0 - Spinner
0.1.0 - Spinner ('18) |
0.0.1 - Pinstripe Spider - Spinner ('17)
0.0.1 - Wild Type (rescue) ('?)
0.1.0 - Dinker ('18)
0.0.1 - Spinner ('17)
All to probe when I find the time. |
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Re: Personal Opinions on Spiders
Originally Posted by Spechal
Ill give it a read when i get home, thanks! Looks interesting.
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The more silent you become, the more you are able to hear...
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Not to bring it back to the dog thing but I see this comparison a lot when the wobble argument is brought up.
It’s important to realize that the spider gene is a SINGLE gene (single locus) acting to influence the characteristics of an animal, while the smashed faces and breathing problems inherent to brachycephalic dogs is the work of many different genes on different loci coming together to influence the look of the animal; being brachycephalic is a polygenic trait, is what I’m getting at, and it’s not a very apt comparison if you want to draw analogies between deleterious traits.
A more accurate comparison would be the breeding of “super merle” or “double merle” aussies (and other breeds that carry the trait). The “super merle” dogs can command a high price tag and are generally born either deaf, blind, or both... and are usually bought and brought home before the buyer realizes the pup’s abnormalities. The supers are generally all or almost all white, and it does raise an interesting question (in my mind at least) as to whether the heterozygote merles possibly show subtle genetic or behavioral flaws, such as spiders do.
Sources for those who are interested:
http://www.amazingaussies.com/What%2...l%20Whites.pdf
http://www.dogingtonpost.com/double-...y-preventable/
Last edited by Trisnake; 06-10-2018 at 07:19 PM.
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