Personal Opinions on Spiders

[Crowfingers]

Also just want to add that I don't think that owning spiders is cruel or that they are suffering. I don't judge anyone for breeding and or having them. I think we can all agree that any individual snake that has any defect that causes significant stress or inability to function normally (ie feed itself, hold it's head up, move to thermoregulate) then that individual snake should be euthanized independent of its morph.

Genetics is a hot topic in all animal hobbies but we are all in this for the care and enjoyment of our pets, and as long as they are healthy that's what really counts. No one should be judged for choosing what morphs they want to have and work with

[dakski]

My female Albino Spider, Shayna, is both beautiful, calm and docile, and shows virtually no ill effects from the Spider Gene.

I don't really notice a wobble, or any neurological issues, frankly. I am sure if it's the albino gene that cuts through most of that, but she's 6 years old now, and is and has been doing great. Aside from her winter fasts, which are not isolated to Spider Genes , she is an awesome snake.

[the_rotten1]

I love my spiders.




And I have to say, out of this clutch of five babies, the three with the spider gene were the healthiest. They were bigger on average than my two non-spider babies, they hatched out quicker, and they were the first to shed and start eating. No problems whatsoever getting them started. If you look around you'll start to notice that most of the anti-spider crowd have either never owned one, or don't have much experience with them. Meanwhile, most breeders who have knowledge and experience with these gorgeous snakes say they are healthy. Who you believe is up to you.

A few things I can tell you about spiders:

1. The wobble is variable. Not only does it differ from spider to spider, but it also differes from one moment to another. Spiders wobble when excited or under stress, but they move around normally most of the time. If you could see my spiders moving around their tubs, or slithering across my room while they're calm, you wouldn't notice any difference between the way they move and any other BP.
2. The wobble isn't inherently debilitating. If it were, these animals would not thrive as they do. People pooh-pooh it when breeders say that spiders eat, shed, poop, and breed just as well as other snakes, but all of these things are signs of health in a ball python. As we all know, BPs will skip meals for seemingly no reason. An that was suffering would not do as well as most spiders.
3. Both the severity of the wobble and the number of severe cases of wobble are greatly exaggerated. One example is when people compare them to pugs, or other dogs with deformities that cause them pain and health issues. It's not an accurite comparison. Spiders don't have a skull deformity or difficulty breathing. It would be more accurate to compare them to a dog that walks around normally most of the time, but jumps so high that it falls over when excited. I'm sure plenty of toy dogs do that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say people shouldn't breed them because of it.
4. Spiders have good temperament. At least all the ones I've worked with have. I've never had a defensive or nippy spider. At worst, some have been a little flighty when stressed, but they're typically a very friendly and easy-going snake.
5. Spiders have great appetite! Mine typically do not turn down a meal unless they're in shed, breeding, or getting ready to lay eggs. None of them have been particularly picky either. Always great to have a snake that will eat the other snakes' leftovers.
6. They're just plain gorgeous! I have to admit I haven't always been a big fan of black and yellow, but with all the great combos out there you don't have to be. Throw them into coral glow, hypo, or some other color mutation to add some amazing pattern. You want a white snake? White pieds are as white as you can get and some spider pieds have no pattern at all. Look up "white wedding" ball pythons.

Now, all of that said I respect that some people don't like spiders. You're entitled to your own opinions and feelings. If you don't want them in your collection that's perfectly fine by me. I also want to thank everyone in this thread thus far for not going the "breeders are all greedy and care nothing for the health of their snakes" route. It's great to speak with a group of people mature enough to state their reservations without attacking people who don't agree with them. I think y'all are missing out on a great morph, but thanks for being awesome about it.

[Slicercrush]

I love my spiders.




And I have to say, out of this clutch of five babies, the three with the spider gene were the healthiest. They were bigger on average than my two non-spider babies, they hatched out quicker, and they were the first to shed and start eating. No problems whatsoever getting them started. If you look around you'll start to notice that most of the anti-spider crowd have either never owned one, or don't have much experience with them. Meanwhile, most breeders who have knowledge and experience with these gorgeous snakes say they are healthy. Who you believe is up to you.

A few things I can tell you about spiders:

1. The wobble is variable. Not only does it differ from spider to spider, but it also differes from one moment to another. Spiders wobble when excited or under stress, but they move around normally most of the time. If you could see my spiders moving around their tubs, or slithering across my room while they're calm, you wouldn't notice any difference between the way they move and any other BP.
2. The wobble isn't inherently debilitating. If it were, these animals would not thrive as they do. People pooh-pooh it when breeders say that spiders eat, shed, poop, and breed just as well as other snakes, but all of these things are signs of health in a ball python. As we all know, BPs will skip meals for seemingly no reason. An that was suffering would not do as well as most spiders.
3. Both the severity of the wobble and the number of severe cases of wobble are greatly exaggerated. One example is when people compare them to pugs, or other dogs with deformities that cause them pain and health issues. It's not an accurite comparison. Spiders don't have a skull deformity or difficulty breathing. It would be more accurate to compare them to a dog that walks around normally most of the time, but jumps so high that it falls over when excited. I'm sure plenty of toy dogs do that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say people shouldn't breed them because of it.
4. Spiders have good temperament. At least all the ones I've worked with have. I've never had a defensive or nippy spider. At worst, some have been a little flighty when stressed, but they're typically a very friendly and easy-going snake.
5. Spiders have great appetite! Mine typically do not turn down a meal unless they're in shed, breeding, or getting ready to lay eggs. None of them have been particularly picky either. Always great to have a snake that will eat the other snakes' leftovers.
6. They're just plain gorgeous! I have to admit I haven't always been a big fan of black and yellow, but with all the great combos out there you don't have to be. Throw them into coral glow, hypo, or some other color mutation to add some amazing pattern. You want a white snake? White pieds are as white as you can get and some spider pieds have no pattern at all. Look up "white wedding" ball pythons.

Now, all of that said I respect that some people don't like spiders. You're entitled to your own opinions and feelings. If you don't want them in your collection that's perfectly fine by me. I also want to thank everyone in this thread thus far for not going the "breeders are all greedy and care nothing for the health of their snakes" route. It's great to speak with a group of people mature enough to state their reservations without attacking people who don't agree with them. I think y'all are missing out on a great morph, but thanks for being awesome about it.

Honestly, the more i look, the more ive been wanting a spider morph. Banana spiders look gorgeous, and im gonna be looking at others for sure! Thank you for the input.

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[Valyrian]

Not to be a pain, but I have to disagree. I see dozens of dogs a day, the purebreds and designer breeds have more chronic issues - as an example it is 100% known fact that boxers as a breed have a higher chance of dilated cardiomyopathy than random mixes (dobermans and Irish wolfhounds too). A golden-doodle is more likely to have allergies than a jack russle/poodle/beagle/lab mix. All toy breeds have much higher chances of dental issues - because they have been bred to be small - genetically as canines they are trying to fit the same number of teeth into a skull that nature never intended. Therefore the more breeds you throw into a genetic make up the less likely genetic issues are to be expressed - it's called hybrid vigor.

I do agree that mixes can have the issues for their parent breeds - which is why if you have a "white-footed" mutt that develops cancer, you should have it genetic tested for the MDR1 gene to ensure it can tolerate certain chemo-therapies and other drugs. The MDR1 issue stems from collies and other herding breeds. I have met and treated very sick mutts too, it's just not as common for the chronic issues that I see in other breeds.

Again: no disrespect, but I have this talk with clients on an almost weekly basis - hybrid vigor will win out over line-genetics more often than not

This is 100% true. Genetic diversity produces healthier offspring because they have a wider gene pool from which to choose the healthiest genes.

This is true of all organisms including humans, which is why the idea of racial superiority, nationalism and a dislike of interracial families is so moronic. The children literally have the benefit of inheriting the strongest genes from each population.

For example, people of European heritage have a higher chance of carrying genes related to Cystic Fibrosis and people of African heritage have a higher chance of carrying genes related to Sickle Cell Anaemia. The resulting children from that pairing would inherit the healthiest genes from each parent and consequently a lower chance of developing either illness. It's basic genetics.

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[Spechal]

My OD Bee used to wobble a little when I got her, but she doesn’t anymore. She does like to twist and turn a lot and sniff up and backwards a lot. To the degree I am amazed she can even do it without falling over. Hence the name Ms. Bender. Wouldn’t trade her for the world. My spinner has zero wobbles and never has. My black pewter Spider doesn’t wobble either. I would and will continue to get bees. My next pick up is butter bee as well, provided she is still available next week. Looking forward to making Butter BELs.

A bit extreme but I like to go hard or go home ... should people with Autism or Down’s syndrome or Alzheimer’s not procreate too? I’m a high functioning autistic and my son is in the 99th percentile for reading, math and science ... tests two grades above his current classmates.


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[fieldfare]

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

[Valyrian]

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

No one has mentioned the fact that breeding Spider to Spider is not compatible with life. Super Spiders are lethal.

I feel that should be a factor to consider when thinking about the ethics of continuing the gene.

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[EDR]

My killer bee and sugar bee are two of my absolute favorite's. My sugar bee is gorgeous she is the sweetest ball python I have and really doesn't have much of the wobble. My killer bee is a big yellow jelly donut that all ways eats. But she does do the cork screwing when handled and like someone else mentioned when it comes to feeding I need to watch out. But they eat, shed and do everything else just fine. Out of my whole collection my bees have the most personality. I'd post pics but I'm at work.

So with this said if you have a rack too fill and have a spider combo on your mind go for it you shouldn't regret it.

I've been lurking this site since 2013 and I've seen alot of these spider threads and this is one of the more docile one's I've seen so good job people.

[rufretic]

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

I don’t know about the genetics behind it but based on my experience with breeding a spider with no signs of wobble, I would say it is not just random. She laid 7 healthy eggs which all hatched, 6 out of 7 being spider combos. Not one of them showed any signs of wobble. If it was random, I have to think at least one of her offspring would of had some wobble. This year will test the opposite because I am breeding the girl I have that does the corkscrewing. If her offspring do it as well, I think it will be pretty obviously that the severity of wobble in offspring is directly related to the severity of wobble in the parent. If this does prove out, I personally won’t be breeding any more spiders that show wobble but will continue to breed the spiders that do not show signs of wobble.