Personal Opinions on Spiders

[Slicercrush]

Of course, now that I have decided to get a rack from CSerpants, I now seem to find myself looking at Morph Market for ideas on how to fill the second space in the rack. I have plenty of ideas, but I also seem to be starting to get a nice eye for spider morphs, especially different "Bees". Knowing that they have neurological issues, though, i'm really having a debate in my head whether or not I would want to support that. I know many of them don't have the wobble too terribly bad, and I wouldnt mind picking up a snake with neuro issues, but its knowing that they are deliberately bred with people knowing they could possibly suffer that bothers me. What is your guy's opinion on this? I know this can be a heated issue in the community, but I was curious what the majority may be.

[MD_Pythons]

As someone who owns a snake with a gene that can have similar neurological issues (Woma) I think you shouldn't automatically rule them out, it's very variable. My Woma doesn't really have much issue most of the time, and the many of them have a wobble on the more subtle side. If you like them, I don't think you should let that deter you from getting one.

[StillBP]

As a general rule the issues surrounding spider, woma, champagne exc. Do not affect the day to day lives of the snake. I have several wobble genes including one spider that is a bad wobbler. He still eats breeds and sheds just like any other snake in my rack. So I can only say don't go by the gene go by the animal. And you may find you like a beautiful bee.

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[Slicercrush]

As a general rule the issues surrounding spider, woma, champagne exc. Do not affect the day to day lives of the snake. I have several wobble genes including one spider that is a bad wobbler. He still eats breeds and sheds just like any other snake in my rack. So I can only say don't go by the gene go by the animal. And you may find you like a beautiful bee.

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Wasn't ruling them out in the slightest, just curious about what others thought! I always think I have the perfect gene i want then *bam* i find another. Right now its between some sort of bee, pied, banana...so many...

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[Lord Sorril]

My Spiders that actively wobble when excited or during feeding seem to suffer no ill effects other than the occasional weak/missed strikes, 99.5% of the time they are asymptomatic.

Any Spider morph I produce with passive wobble gets culled immediately regardless of value/genetics. I'm not for weakening bloodlines or propagating defective pets.

[JodanOrNoDan]

My Spiders that actively wobble when excited or during feeding seem to suffer no ill effects other than the occasional weak/missed strikes, 99.5% of the time they are asymptomatic.

Any Spider morph I produce with passive wobble gets culled immediately regardless of value/genetics. I'm not for weakening bloodlines or propagating defective pets.

So you cull every one of them?

I have been away from the board for awhile. When I decided I needed to get back on here I made a decision to halt rumors and stop the propagation of false facts. When I know the facts, I am going to speak and when I don't I am going to shut up.

Spider Morph

I have quite a few at this point, and have hatched many more. I originally avoided this animal because of many of the falsehoods surrounding it. The following is what I believe to be the truth.

1. Spider is a defect. There is no debating that. It is most likely a neurological problem that demonstrates itself by the snake not being able to keep its head oriented.

2. It cannot be bred out other than by crossing it to a blackhead, and then you end up with a snake that no longer looks like a spider. This indicates the visual changes are "hard linked" to the neuro defect.

3. Spiders have less eating problems than other bp's. False. My numbers show the same ratios as other morphs.

4. Spiders like different temps than other BP's. False.

5. Spiders are better behaved than others. False. Jerk spiders come in the same ratio as other jerk snakes.

6. Non-wobbling, severe-wobbling. etc. No such thing. If they are a spider they wobble. I can get a severe wobbling snake to stop and I can get a non-severe wobbling one to demonstrate a severe wobble.

7. Younger spiders in my observation have less muscle definition in the neck which makes controlling the head more difficult. Visual wobble decreases with improved muscle definition.

8. They absolutely do eat, poop, and breed to the same degree as any other bp. There is no indication that they are in pain or even care that they have an issue.

9. The degree of the wobble is in direct proportion to how excited and or stressed the animal is.

10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

11. Spider cannot survive in the wild. This is kaka. The original spider was wild caught.

The following is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. My favorite animals happen to be spiders. Not because of what they look like but because they are "better" pets. Let's face it, bp's display little to no indication about how they are "feeling". The defect in the Spider bp gives you a not so subtle visual indicator into the snake's mental state. A corkscrewing spider is either upset about something or it is really flipping hungry. When I experiment with husbandry, I almost always use spiders because I know when something is wrong. If the animal is displaying more than a minor twitch something is up. For jerk spiders, it is very easy to tell when the animal wants to tag you.

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

[Slicercrush]

So you cull every one of them?

I have been away from the board for awhile. When I decided I needed to get back on here I made a decision to halt rumors and stop the propagation of false facts. When I know the facts, I am going to speak and when I don't I am going to shut up.

Spider Morph

I have quite a few at this point, and have hatched many more. I originally avoided this animal because of many of the falsehoods surrounding it. The following is what I believe to be the truth.

1. Spider is a defect. There is no debating that. It is most likely a neurological problem that demonstrates itself by the snake not being able to keep its head oriented.

2. It cannot be bred out other than by crossing it to a blackhead, and then you end up with a snake that no longer looks like a spider. This indicates the visual changes are "hard linked" to the neuro defect.

3. Spiders have less eating problems than other bp's. False. My numbers show the same ratios as other morphs.

4. Spiders like different temps than other BP's. False.

5. Spiders are better behaved than others. False. Jerk spiders come in the same ratio as other jerk snakes.

6. Non-wobbling, severe-wobbling. etc. No such thing. If they are a spider they wobble. I can get a severe wobbling snake to stop and I can get a non-severe wobbling one to demonstrate a severe wobble.

7. Younger spiders in my observation have less muscle definition in the neck which makes controlling the head more difficult. Visual wobble decreases with improved muscle definition.

8. They absolutely do eat, poop, and breed to the same degree as any other bp. There is no indication that they are in pain or even care that they have an issue.

9. The degree of the wobble is in direct proportion to how excited and or stressed the animal is.

10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

11. Spider cannot survive in the wild. This is kaka. The original spider was wild caught.

The following is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. My favorite animals happen to be spiders. Not because of what they look like but because they are "better" pets. Let's face it, bp's display little to no indication about how they are "feeling". The defect in the Spider bp gives you a not so subtle visual indicator into the snake's mental state. A corkscrewing spider is either upset about something or it is really flipping hungry. When I experiment with husbandry, I almost always use spiders because I know when something is wrong. If the animal is displaying more than a minor twitch something is up. For jerk spiders, it is very easy to tell when the animal wants to tag you.

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

I love seeing more opinions on this thread!

Ive done quite a bit of research since this was last discussed, and I can say for sure many other spider owners argue many of the same points you have. Just to make it clear, i didnt make this thread because i was against/for owning spiders, i was more curious on the general opinion of other hobbyists.

Spiders are still high on my wanted morph list, and lord knows if i see a cool spider morph at White Plains in 3 weeks, ill surely be picking it up to fill that 2nd rack thats waiting empty

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[skydnay]

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

I think this is a really good point. I haven't owned BPs for very long, but upon first getting into them, I was bombarded with a ton of information about how "bad" the spider gene and wobble are for BPs, complete with informational videoed with sad background music. This was alarming, because spiders were so accessible and immediately became my favorite gene. I read some more and found varying opinions on the gene, and finally decided to go ahead and get one for myself.

I have a very happy spider enchi ghost who rarely wobbles, except when striking at his food. Like Jordan points out, it's easy to tell that he is because of the lack of wobble. My other BPs just sit there, so Whiskey is a nice visual reminder that I'm doing pretty well by them.

Also, I understand that an animal behaving erratically is usually alarming, but I've been thinking of wobble as similar to the disorder in cats and dogs that causes them to be unable to balance. There's plenty of videos showing that these animals are healthy and in no pain, they just fall over a lot, especially when excited.

[paulh]

....

10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

....

The above quote is the only part of JodanOrNoDan's post I have a problem with. And that is because it can be interpreted in several ways:

1. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, one or both adults is certain to die before the eggs are laid. This is false. Mortality is no worse than when a spider ball python is mated to a normal. And, of course, all ball pythons die sooner or later.

2. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, all of the eggs will die before hatching. This is false.

3. Here is what is true, to the best of my knowledge and experience with lethal genes in other species. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two spider genes, 2/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with a spider gene paired with a normal gene, and 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two normal genes. Embryos having a spider gene paired with a normal gene hatch out as spider ball pythons. Embryos having two normal genes hatch out as normal (non-spider) ball pythons. These spider and normal ball pythons have the same survival chances as spider and normal ball pythons from a spider ball python x normal mating. Embryos having two spider genes die before hatching.

If I wanted to mate two spider ball pythons, I would do it. Your mileage may vary.

[JodanOrNoDan]

The above quote is the only part of JodanOrNoDan's post I have a problem with. And that is because it can be interpreted in several ways:

1. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, one or both adults is certain to die before the eggs are laid. This is false. Mortality is no worse than when a spider ball python is mated to a normal. And, of course, all ball pythons die sooner or later.

2. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, all of the eggs will die before hatching. This is false.

3. Here is what is true, to the best of my knowledge and experience with lethal genes in other species. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two spider genes, 2/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with a spider gene paired with a normal gene, and 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two normal genes. Embryos having a spider gene paired with a normal gene hatch out as spider ball pythons. Embryos having two normal genes hatch out as normal (non-spider) ball pythons. These spider and normal ball pythons have the same survival chances as spider and normal ball pythons from a spider ball python x normal mating. Embryos having two spider genes die before hatching.

If I wanted to mate two spider ball pythons, I would do it. Your mileage may vary.

Yes, all this is correct. I was too lazy to type it though. I maybe should have clarified. Having spider on both sides of the ladder is lethal. I don't do the cross because I do not want my females producing non-viable embryos if it can be prevented.