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  1. #31
    BPnet Veteran highqualityballz's Avatar
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    IMO a cat is a pet type of animal and create a bond with humans that rats, rabbits, hamsters don’t. Would you feed a newborn puppy to a snake? Everyone is so quick to throw the kitten in but when it comes to a puppy they sing a different tune.

  2. #32
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    Re: Kittens For Food?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Cheesenugget, I appreciate & agree with your reasons that feral cats (kittens) are unsuitable "feeders" but I absolutely do not agree with "TNR"- and never will.

    Cats are DOMESTIC animals, NOT NATIVE wildlife...as such, they should be removed from the wild by all means necessary to protect our native species.
    It's no different than removing & euthanizing the non-native giant snakes being found loose in Florida...the only difference is that you happen to prefer cats.

    You are certainly among animal lovers here...but it it's not right for your pet of choice to take over as if it belongs everywhere, killing & maiming the species
    that DO belong here. TNR is ridiculous: feral cats continue to damage property, attack not only wildlife but pets, spread diseases and parasites, and ruin
    organic gardens where people like myself work very hard to produce healthy food that is safe for humans to eat, and cause accidents when they run in front
    of cars. The public has long been "educated" about fixing their cats...how's that working for ya? It's NOT.

    How many cat lovers believe their cats should never roam outside, out of their yard? I can probably count them on one hand...sadly, I've concluded that
    people who claim to love their cats are more lazy than love-filled...it's just so much easier to let their cat run loose than to pick up after it or deal with it's
    social & exercise needs. How thoughtful of your neighbors property....it's not only "feral" cats but loose cats- "pets"- that are a problem now everywhere.
    A big thanks for all that animal love, that has blinded cat-owners into thinking their cat deserves access to every else's property, including nature preserves
    and public parks. If you love cats, or any other pets, you keep them home where they are protected & cared for. Don't tell me how much cat owners "care"!

    What was once a farmer's means of controlling rodents in their barn on private land is now a public menace everywhere...but that was LONG ago! The world
    has changed, in case you haven't noticed. Human population continues to expand, along with their roaming cats, all the while space between us gets ever
    smaller & more precious...it gets harder for native birds, reptiles, amphibians & mammals to survive. Do we want a world filled with nature's diversity of life? Or a world with just cats?
    I understand and accept your opinion. I'm pretty active in a local cat forums and your argument is loudly spoken and heard by many cat owners. And many times, we the cat owners do agree with you.

    I just want to clarify a few things. I live in South FL so the pythons you speak of is a common topic in the news every year. They hold hunting competitions and even got scientists involved in dealing with the problem. However, while killing the pythons is necessary, it is inefficient. These snakes are smart and difficult to find. For every snake they manage to kill by hunting, another 10 is lying in wait nearby hiding from view and continuing to eat up the local wildlife.

    Just as it was needed for feral cats, addressing these types of problems require a 'work smart not hard' mentality. Scientists have been placing trackers on male pythons who would lead them to a large female plus any extra males who were following her. By following 1 male, they were able to catch more than killing them all indiscriminately. The females are especially important to remove from the environment. It is a work in progress. Killing them just cause it ate a songbird may seem justified. But you will see by killing that tomcat, another large tomcat will move right in, mate with his females and start new litters immediately. Same with the pythons. We can kill that 1 male who happen to be an easy find or we can track him to lead us to a breeding female plus any extra males along the way.

    It is a fact that cats are having a negative impact on wildlife. It is also important to remember that the demise of many, many different species near your home and worldwide are caused by habitat destruction. Fragmentation of habitat is choking certain species to extinction by not able to prevent inbreeding.

    I agree today's world is a different one. More people can afford to eat steaks so more farmlands are needed to raise cattle. We need more homes so off you go, lets clear that land and that acre as well so we can build a cool outlet mall nearby. Most of the time, it is unintentional. When you go to Home Depot to pick up some plants for your garden, they are mostly non native species. Your garden that used to hold native plants and trees were removed to make room for your colorful annuals, who may spread their seeds elsewhere. Most invasive species are harmless and do not cause a problem but when they do, they already took hold of the environment.

    Birds who survived the cats' fatal claws have to find suitable homes to mate and nest. Butterflies that were once abundant no longer appears because the milkweed plants (Native to FL) have been removed to make way. The list goes on and on.

    Like I said, I respect and understand your frustration. It seems in every pet community, we also have a bad batch of irresponsible owners who is continuing this mess (Even the bunny community is not spared, did you know we have feral bunnies?). I am not excusing the lazy cat owners or the problems feral cats have caused. I just want to bring up a different perspective especially you brought up the python problems for those who don't live in FL or know what is going on.
    Last edited by Cheesenugget; 05-29-2018 at 02:59 PM.

  3. #33
    BPnet Veteran Godzilla78's Avatar
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    Re: Kittens For Food?

    I’m a snake owner, and a cat owner. I love cats and snakes, they are very cool predators and very cool pets. I do believe in controlling the population, there should only be responsible breeders of snakes, and there should only be responsible keepers of cats that spay and neuter. However if the population gets out of control as in the Burmese python problem or the feral cat problem, there needs to be an elimination of these creatures by any means in my opinion.
    Killing is often necessary in the animal kingdom.

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  5. #34
    BPnet Lifer zina10's Avatar
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    I think just like with most problems, a lot of thought needs to go into it and a multi angle approach needs to be taken.

    To many times someone will get some "great" idea and ends up with even bigger problems. How many times have people tried to fight one species by introducing another in order to eradicate it. Only for the introduced species to take over and cause even more problems.

    Spay and neuter programs work to an extend, but I do agree that it is not enough. For every cat that is fixed, there are 20 more new cat owners that let their cats roam, fixed or not, or even end up abandoning it.

    Killing them all? Ok...but how? I think most agree that feeding them off to snakes is not a good option, unless you want to risk harm to your snakes and our hobby.

    Shooting? I can see that go all kinds of wrong in many ways. Not to mention to get that passed will be like...impossible. Whether that is good or not, it is what it is.

    Poison? Lets not go there, that would be a very bad idea.

    I believe it may not be a bad idea if someone could come up with a food additive that renders those cats sterile. Of course that has to be save, effective, and people have to be on board to really give this a chance.

    I keep coming back to the root of it. Because, until you take care of the root, all you do is pluck the green off and more sprouts all the while.

    It always comes right back to irresponsible owners. Unless on a farm cats should NOT be allowed to roam anymore. Period. Fixed or not. You aren't allowed to let your cows/pig/dogs/horses roam, why cats ??? And no, that is NOT where they belong. And yes, they CAN be happy being indoors only. Not to mention that you can figure out how to give your cat outdoor times by building a window box, a outdoor run, or even a leash. But this is just the thing. Cat owners are often lazy. No need to house break cats. Easy peezy. Next thing , why even bother with a litter box, just push the cat outdoors to poop in the neighbors veggie or flower bed. Also means they don't have to entertain their cat to keep it from destroying the furniture. Training? Cats don't need that. If they don't behave, out the door you go. All the while telling themselves that is where cats belong, that is where they are happy, that is what they need. In truth there is disease for which there are no shots, vehicles running them over, other animals chasing and killing them, people catching and torturing them.

    I know there are still people that even let their dogs roam on purpose. So getting this passed will cause a gigantic outcry and is going to be very, very difficult. Cat owners will have a cow. Cats will get turned into shelters or abandoned. That's the other thing, if caught abandoning your animal, the punishment should be severe. As is, the laws on neglecting, abusing and abandoning pets are still far to weak.

    I have rescued quite a few kittens, nursed them back to health, bottle fed, etc. The one that was literally more dead then alive for days we ended up keeping. I'm not a cat person, so the kittens I save and foster as well as the cat I kept have rules. Just like the dogs. They get taught. Just like the dogs. They know the word "no". They get trained where to scratch and where not. Most of all, they immediately get trained to accept trimming their nails. Don't get me started on "de-clawing" which is just a fancy word for amputating each toe at the last digit, which is cruel. And again, pure laziness on the owners part. My cat gets his nails trimmed with the cordless Dremmel. Just like the dogs. He lays in my lap unrestrained while I do that. He gets to come into the back yard. When we go out with the dogs. He comes back inside with us and the dogs. Never ever left the yard or even tries.

    All in all I have actually met a lot more reptile owners that will research and make sure that their animals get the right care, that they are treated right, than I have met responsible dog or cat owners.

    Feral and outdoor cats are a big problem. I wish their was more done about it then just spay and neuter. But I also don't think going on wild killing sprees is ultimately going to be the answer. Fight it at the root of the problem. If only...

    Here is Jack getting his nails done , LOL !!

    ps: If anyone thinks I'm "mean" to the cat because he has rules and training, let me juts tell you that this strange cat LOVES me. He literally adores me. He comes when called and if I'd let him, he'd stay stuck to my side as if attached by velcro. He is more loyal then most dogs. He is a very happy cat!

    https://youtu.be/Txu6yGYkcWg
    Last edited by zina10; 05-29-2018 at 03:18 PM.
    Zina

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  7. #35
    BPnet Veteran Godzilla78's Avatar
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    Re: Kittens For Food?

    Luckily we have a lot of coyotes and some foxes that “control” outdoor cat populations around here.

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  9. #36
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Kittens For Food?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla78 View Post
    I’m a snake owner, and a cat owner. I love cats and snakes, they are very cool predators and very cool pets. I do believe in controlling the population, there should only be responsible breeders of snakes, and there should only be responsible keepers of cats that spay and neuter. However if the population gets out of control as in the Burmese python problem or the feral cat problem, there needs to be an elimination of these creatures by any means in my opinion.
    Killing is often necessary in the animal kingdom.
    Exactly! I don't welcome the killing of any animals: I feel bad for non-native snakes being killed for "being in the wrong place" but because I CARE about
    our native wildlife, the whole ecosystem, I understand and accept that necessity.

    But obviously, most cat-lovers refuse to accept the same fate for feral/loose cats: animal shelters have long waiting lists from people who want to turn in all
    those kittens or puppies they just couldn't resist producing, or the older pets they no longer want or are able to care for. Most of those owner turn-ins will make
    good pets for a new owner. But then add in all the cat-lovers who just can't resist feeding the strays, or even participating in TNR (if anyone doesn't know what
    that is, it stands for "trap, neuter & release"): this is all WRONG. First off, most feral cats take a lot of work to make them become suitable pets. Where does
    all that money, time & energy come from? From "cat-lovers" who mostly let their own cats run loose...well, because "it's always been done that way"!? And if
    you only have a finite (NOT INFINITE) number of good homes to adopt cats, why would you continue to work with ferals & allow those that are already PETS to
    be euthanized or dumped? Because that's what happens when the waiting list is too long at a shelter...many unwanted pets get dumped. So this never ends...

    The arguments by cat-lovers in favor of TNR, that eliminating feral cats is just too hard to do, are deliberately missing the point! The first part of TNR is TRAP!
    Hello??? Many feral cats can be trapped...we know this because they ARE being trapped. But instead of euthanizing them as should be (& must become) the
    law, they are only being neutered & released. Yes, that reduces the population of cats...but it's too little. Remember that human population keeps increasing
    all the while, so more people are releasing more cats all the time...so TNR does NOT work and never will. And all those damn loose cats are still killing wildlife,
    still damaging property, still spreading diseases & parasites to animals and people, still disturbing the sleep of hard-working people w/ fights....this must stop.

    If you truly love cats, you would NOT want them running loose, to be hungry, diseased, preyed upon, poisoned or run over by cars. That's not what I call 'love'.
    It's far kinder to cats to euthanize those trapped than to release them, & since they are not native predators but "domestic" animals (hence the name "domestic
    short-hair" etc) they do not ever belong running wild. This is unacceptable for any other species we keep...why should cats be different? This must stop now.

    I applaud Australia for taking action on this issue. >>>

    https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/an...nimals-per-day

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...on-feral-cats/

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-0...imates/9013960

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...t-of-australia

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...lets-injected/

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  11. #37
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Kittens For Food?

    Quote Originally Posted by highqualityballz View Post
    IMO a cat is a pet type of animal and create a bond with humans that rats, rabbits, hamsters don’t. Would you feed a newborn puppy to a snake? Everyone is so quick to throw the kitten in but when it comes to a puppy they sing a different tune.
    Um, have you ever had a pet rat? I have had quite a few actually, before I ever got into snakes. Rats are smart & trainable (comparable to dogs & cats!)
    & even affectionate at times. I can't speak for rabbits, as I've never kept them, but I like & have raised many hamsters too (Russian dwarf, that is...they
    are social, while the Syrian hamsters are not). Hamsters don't have quite the smarts that rats do, they're just "cuter". But don't make assumptions, ok???

    This discussion was started on cats because of the overwhelming numbers that shelters can no longer manage, as the OP explained. Similar situation for
    dogs, sadly & to our disgrace as a nation of "animal lovers". This is NOT an attempt to "throw the kitten in..." despite the thread title.

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  13. #38
    BPnet Veteran enginee837's Avatar
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    Re: Kittens For Food?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla78 View Post
    Luckily we have a lot of coyotes and some foxes that “control” outdoor cat populations around here.
    We have the same luxury here as well. Coyotes do a wonderful job on loose cats and small dogs. As for the dangers of feeding cats (or dogs for that matter) to your snake, just sent all the unwanted/euthanized animals to reptilinks. My black-heads would gladly dispose of this kitty and puppy sausages.
    I can't say I care for cats much but I am a dog lover and even so I dont agree with being wasteful.
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  14. #39
    BPnet Lifer zina10's Avatar
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    Re: Kittens For Food?

    Quote Originally Posted by enginee837 View Post
    We have the same luxury here as well. Coyotes do a wonderful job on loose cats and small dogs. As for the dangers of feeding cats (or dogs for that matter) to your snake, just sent all the unwanted/euthanized animals to reptilinks. My black-heads would gladly dispose of this kitty and puppy sausages.
    I can't say I care for cats much but I am a dog lover and even so I dont agree with being wasteful.
    You most definitely do NOT want this to happen !!!

    As is, there are certain pet food manufactures that will buy rendered meat containing euthanized pets (and horses). Many dogs have died, because the euthanasia drugs were in the food. Not to mention the many other drugs in many pets (they get steroids, pain meds and some pretty hardcore stuff).
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  16. #40
    BPnet Veteran WhompingWillow's Avatar
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    Re: Kittens For Food?

    Just chiming in as a cat owner (we have 7, 6 of which were rescues, all of which are 100% indoor cats unless on a harness and actively supervised) - psychologically, I could never feed a kitten to a snake, even if F/T. To me, cats are pets. I can separate emotionally from a F/T rodent, but I don't think I'd ever be able to kill a mouse or rat, just like I would have a difficult time feeding live. We actually got our most recent cat from a reptile show (she was a barn kitten that was turned into a chinchilla rescue), and she's required a lot of vet care to get her healthy.

    There are irresponsible pet owners across the animal spectrum. Name an animal and there are guaranteed to be irresponsible owners somewhere. While TNR may not be perfect or an immediate solution, it's at least a step in the right direction. I just don't think it's fair to generalize cat owners, just like it's not fair to generalize reptile keepers.
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