Help identify my first clutch!

[the_rotten1]

Okay guys, this one's a twofer. Originally I was just going to ask for help with the pied, but then I noticed something odd in a few other hatchlings. Now I need help with the whole clutch.

Part 1. This one should be easy, but I don't know how to tell the difference between a leopard pied and single gene pied. I think I see leopard in her pattern, but it might just be the pied gene.


Here's another picture so you can see all of her:


So what do you think, leopard or no leopard? And if you breed leopard pieds, how do you tell the difference between a leopard pied and a single gene pied?

Part 2. I'm wondering if there's an additional gene at play in this clutch. The theory started with this girl right here:

Gorgeous, right? I've never seen a single gene leopard with such a reduced pattern. Here's another pic of her for reference:

So she has a few "eyes" in her alienheads, but they're absent from the majority of her pattern. Her father has plenty of them and it's a different look. Here he is:

He's a beautiful leopard, but there's nothing atypical about his pattern. After thinking about it for awhile, I remembered seeing this on morph market:
https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/98687
It doesn't quite look like her, but it looks more like her than her father. I figured that I might have a pattern reducing gene on my hands, and that if I did, she wouldn't be the only one in the clutch that had it. I had noticed differences between my two spider hatchlings earlier, so I took the opportunity to compare them side by side:

Right off the bat you can see that they're very distinct from one another. The male (on bottom) is darker and bolder. He has less striping down the sides too, so I think he has the reduced pattern. In the egg I wasn't quite sure if he was a spider or a leopard spider. I'm sure he isn't leopard now that he's out, but that doesn't mean he's a single gene either. If there is an additional gene at play, I'm sure he got it from his mother.

See how the stripes on her side fade out the closer you get to her tail? I always thought she had a pretty reduced pattern, but never expected it to prove genetic. Knowing that she's passed it on to some of her offspring, I started looking at pattern reducing genes. I started with blade, because it's fairly popular. I was able to find some blade spiders. Blade reduces a spider's pattern, but it doesn't seem to cause the missing side stripes in my reduced spiders.

Blade isn't the only pattern reducer out there, and I noticed during my search that it's usually more common on het clowns than het pieds, so I decided to take a look at the Kalabash Reduction Gene. Now, I've never worked with KRG animals before, or even paid them much attention really. But when I found KRG spiders on morph market I found more missing side stripes. Take a look at these animals:

https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/27796
https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/27788
https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/42157

Not only do they have the missing side stripes, but look at the black markings along their spines, a lot like my breeder female. The second KRG spider also has a headstamp that looks a lot like the male spider hatchling with the reduced pattern.

I think I found my answer, but I want to make sure I'm not just seeing things. I don't have a lot of experience with pattern reducers, so professional input would be much appreciated.

Oh, and one last thing. I haven't shown you this guy yet:

I don't think there's pattern reduction in him, but I didn't want to leave him out. He looks like a typical (perfectly gorgeous!) leopard spider to me. Gonna have a hard time parting with this guy.

So that's the whole clutch. I don't think the pattern reducer is in the pied either, not that I would have any way of knowing. But if it is KRG, I'd expect a KRG pied to have less pattern. I discovered during my search that KRG is known for producing high white pieds. Whatever this pattern reducer is, I am sure the male spider and female leopard that have it. And their mother, of course.

For reference all the hatchlings have had their first shed. The ones with the spider gene have also had their first meal. The pairing was Leopard het Pied x Spider het Pied, and there was one dead kinked normal in the clutch. No pattern reduction on that one either.

[CottonMouth]

Can't help you at all but just want to say congrats on the first clutch and they look stunning! 1 & 2 look incredible!

Well done and hopefully they are good to you!

[the_rotten1]

Thanks! They're doing really well so far. They all shed out in one piece and three out of the five are eating, just waiting on the last two. Hopefully they will take a meal next weekend.

[Ax01]

Deborah works with Leopard Pieds and can prob ID them better than most. IMO that is a Leopard Pied. they seem to keep some sort of semblance of their pattern more than other Pied combos.

i think that second Leopard is "reduced" b/c it has very strong het Pied influence. could you share belly pix of this one? also the reduced Spider? but i would be really, really cool if your dam Spider het Pied did have a reduction gene like KRG.

also congrats! great looking clutch!

[the_rotten1]

Deborah works with Leopard Pieds and can prob ID them better than most.

Yeah, I'm hoping Deborah will see this thread and chime in at some point. An ID would mean a lot coming from her.

IMO that is a Leopard Pied. they seem to keep some sort of semblance of their pattern more than other Pied combos.

Thanks for putting that into words. I've been thinking the same thing, but I wasn't sure if it was applicable to all leopard pieds, or just a few particular examples.

i think that second Leopard is "reduced" b/c it has very strong het Pied influence. could you share belly pix of this one? also the reduced Spider? but i would be really, really cool if your dam Spider het Pied did have a reduction gene like KRG.

Unfortunately, none of the babies have strong pied markers, but neither does the dam. Here's the whole family for you:

The Sire

His underside isn't quite white, but he has the strongest railroad tracks of the bunch.

The Dam

Mostly clear underneath, but no railroad tracks to speak of.

The normal? spider hatchling

It was hard to get her to hold still, but there's not much to see here.

The leopard spider hatchling

Just a few blotches.

The reduced leopard

Pretty typical leopard underbelly, imo. Nothing really screams het pied markers to me.

The reduced spider

This guy does have a bit of black near the vent. Not quite railroad tracks, but more than the other hatchlings.

And just because I can, the pied

I love the little orange stripe right after her cloaca. Super cute.

also congrats! great looking clutch!

Thanks! They are really neat, extra gene or not. I really appreciate your input. The tail pics were an important addition to the thread, and I wouldn't have thought to post them without you.

I've been digging through old forum posts and I found an interesting statement on this thread: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...bash-goodness! A breeder who works with the KRG gene said:

As babies they have very peachy /orange sides...

The funny thing is... I think I'm seeing this on all my spider gene hatchlings? I've PMed JimFoxValleyReptiles and asked him to take a look at this thread. Perhaps I'll try to take pictures of the peachy sides on my hatchlings and post them later.

[Ax01]

yes those tracks can be a clue but i was looking for the reverse - subtle ringers.

anyways very nice cute lil bellies. i esp. love that reverse ringer - orange ring on the Leo Pied.

[Godzilla78]

Call me simple, but my favorite of the bunch is that bright orange piebald! Wowzer!!!

[Godzilla78]

O, and I don’t see any KRG. I own one KRG so far and have studied their markings in depth from Tom Parker’s collection.

[the_rotten1]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the feedback.

@Ax01: Yeah, no ringers either. Just a really lovely snake.

@Godzilla78: The pied is a knockout. She's a keeper for sure. Also thanks for weighing in on the KRG. Since I can't currently recognize them, can you tell me what the difference is?

[Spechal]

Your pied and leopard ... beautiful. That’s exactly the reason I want to small time breed. Kudos!


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