Metcalf Reptiles Knowingly Shipped My SD Retics With Mites!!!

[Albert Clark]

I think it's totally irresponsible on the breeders part to not have recognised the mite issue prior to shipping them to a customer. Sure, things happen but it's really negligent as well. Any animal that is up for sale consideration should be scrutinized for health and wellness prior. The onus is directly on the breeder and he actually shouldn't expect you to accept the shipment. He should've faxed over a return shipping label with his sincerest apologies. He should also immediately return your money and let you know that it's unacceptable for you to have to treat these snakes. They are still his responsibility for at least 24 to 48 hrs on any reputable breeders health certificate or statement. He needs to make it crystal clear that he will be assuming the responsibility for selling a customer diseased animals.

[Albert Clark]

Jeez! Even worse, he admits to knowing they were infested with mites and shipped anyways. Totally unacceptable and he shouldn't expect you to have to treat the animals at all.

[Aedryan Methyus]

Thanks for all of your concerns and input you guys. I really appreciate it. I just received a damage control phone call from Aaron's brother - Joseph and we had a long talk. He also completely agreed that Aaron made a very poor judgement call by shipping the animals out. Though, that's a no-brainer... He offered to send financial compensation for my troubles, but I told him that wasn't necessary unless these mites are carrying some kind of crazy disease that ends up wiping out my whole collection. THEN we would have some problems...

Anyway, Joseph highly recommended that I take them out of the box and immediately stick them in a tub with just enough water to cover their backs and leave them in there for 12 - 18 hours when they arrive and he swears that will kill the mites. So, I just finished drilling some holes in a couple tubs, so they will be ready for them to soak when they get here (i'm surprised they aren't here yet, actually). Meanwhile, I will go get some RID and I will be spending the day treating every one of my snake's enclosures and both of my racks from top to bottom and I will treat the carpet in my snake room with RID upholstery and bedding spray as well . Yaaay... Once these guys are done soaking I will dry them off then go ahead and wipe them down real good with Germ X and let the poor little guys rest for a few days. I feel pretty confident that everything will be fine. On the bright side, I will be gaining some more good hands on herp care experience in addition to the experience i've already gained from the recent RI and regurgitation issues I had to treat...

In my opinion, refusing the delivery and having these guys returned this time of year is not an option. Although, it is 63 degrees here today, the low for tomorrow is 22 and the low for Norfolk, NB is 11 degrees for tomorrow... Aside from that, these guys have already been sitting in a box since whatever time yesterday. I just wouldn't do that to the animals...

Here are some other thoughts to consider about the whole quarantine subject... Suppose you already have other recent arrivals sitting in quarantine and you get another new arrival (or multiple new arrivals) and it has mites, parasites, IBD or whatever other disease... Whether that new arrival is placed in your primary snake room or with the other quarantined animals there is going to be a possibility that it could spread to other animals either way. So, what's the point? Does it come down to choosing which animals you would prefer to risk having become infected and which ones you do not? I'm pretty sure most people don't have separate rooms throughout their house for quarantining each individual animal in for 3 - 6 months at a time, nor do I think most people limit themselves to only getting one new animal every few months, so it can be quarantined by itself. The only semi-feasible solution I can think of for myself during the winter months would be to quarantine new arrivals on the opposite side of my snake room. But, would that really be accomplishing anything? Just some things to think about...

[SDA]

Guess I am the only one that doesn't feel mites as something to reject a reptile over. Mites happen and even the best breeder can have them and ship them. They are so easy to clear up in quarantine, I would not even worry about it.

Oh and PAM cooking spray is a horrible and harmful means to do anything to a snake. Not only is it bad for you, it is bad for the snake's scales and not even close to a rational approach to curing anything. It would be like huffing lysol to cure your cold.

[Prognathodon]

I really wonder if the people that use Pam cooking spray got confused when they read that they should use Provent-A-Mite-PAM. At least I wish that was the case, cooking spray just seems so wrong.

Another happy Reptile Rapture customer here.


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[Aedryan Methyus]

Wow... I just got a Paypal notification and Joseph Metcalf sent me a $50.00 payment "for cleaning supplies" even though I told him any sort of financial reimbursement wouldn't be necessary... Honestly, that was the least they could do for his brother's irresponsibility and all of the trouble I have to go through today, but it's still a nice gesture. So, I have to give credit where it is due...

[artgecko]

Aedryan- I'm glad you came to a somewhat happy conclusion to the situation with the breeder.

My thoughts on quarantine are this: It exists to protect your main collection, as much as possible.

As such, you attempt to limit exposure to possible parasites, diseases, etc. by having the new arrivals as far from your existing collection as possible, by having seperate handling / cleaning supplies for the quarantine setup, by wearing gloves and different cloths (that will be washed before being worn again with your main collection). And also, by doing feeding and maintenance on the new snakes last... do your main reptile room then check tubs on the new snakes.

Quarantine lasts for 1 month at my house, although I know others take longer. I try to avoid having new snakes come in at the same time, but if I do happen to have new snakes, say I pick up 2 animals at a show on the same day, then they all go to the quarantine room together.

In your case, you have to look at the possibility of risk and financial cost should vet care be needed. If your main reptile room has more snakes...say 10, and your quarantine room already has 2, then it is easier to treat illness and cheaper, plus less "risk" to put the new arrival in the quarantine room. It should also be noted that in a traditional quarantine setup, you do minimal enclosures, minimal furnishings (hides and water bowl on paper towels) all to make it easier to spot mites, irregular poo, etc. and to treat / disinfect everything if needed. If the setups in your main reptile room are more complex, larger, or contain bio-active setups, those cannot be easily cleaned or checked for issues (like mites).

My setup is pretty simple... I live in a split level house, so the reptile room is on on the bottom floor and my quarantine space is on the top floor. For my setup, I use stand-alone tubs that sit on a desk. Each has 2 RBI hides, a water bowl, and paper towels as substrate. For heating, I use an ultratherm heat mat strip (4" x 4' long) capable of heating 2 tubs at one time. I also have lamp stands and CHE fixtures to hang over the tubs for ambient heat if needed...Although usually I get my animals in the spring or summer and I won't need a CHE to raise ambient temps. I have 12 snakes, 6 geckos, a BTS, and some frogs in my reptile room, so in my case it makes a lot more sense not to risk the whole collection.

[AbsoluteApril]

It's horrible that he would knowingly send them out with mites. At least he warned you, I guess. Still really crappy thing to do though. I've gotten in a snake before that looked clean and was fine. About 30 days later mites showed up which to me says the breeder knew they had mites, pre-cleaned/soaked/oiled the snake going out so none would show when it arrived. Then suddenly once the eggs hatch they were everywhere. Some breeders try to be sneaky and it sucks. I know mites can sometimes happen from a random hitchhiker from a show or shop but a breeder/keeper that knows they have mites and continues to sell is irresponsible. Sure it's a pain to treat an entire collection but it can be done and why someone wouldn't go to the trouble to get them wiped out is beyond me.

PAM is expensive because it works,

Exactly and it is the only mite treatment I use and it works every time.
Always pre-treat QT enclosures and expect the worst.

Suppose you already have other recent arrivals sitting in quarantine and you get another new arrival (or multiple new arrivals) and it has mites, parasites, IBD or whatever other disease... Whether that new arrival is placed in your primary snake room or with the other quarantined animals there is going to be a possibility that it could spread to other animals either way. So, what's the point?

If an animal is in QT and a new arrival comes in, then the QT timer re-starts and the one that was already in QT gets to stay in QT for the additional time until both animals have cleared.
You don't need a separate fully heated room or to live in FL to property QT. You simply need an appropriate set up just like any cage in any house that is away from your current collection. Make sure to use separate tools as well (extra pair of feeding tongs, etc) and always deal with the QT animal last/after doing anything in your normal collection.

[Aedryan Methyus]

Thanks once again to all of you for your care and concern. I really appreciate all of you here at the forum! So, these guys showed up today and other than knowing they have mites they seem to be perfectly vibrant and healthy. And, OMG! They are absolutely stunningly beautiful! I'm already in love with 13 other snakes, but just... WOW! I have them all settled in for their looooong soak and i'm getting ready to start treating my entire snake room from top to bottom and hoping for the best. I'll keep you guys posted...

Thanks again!

[DLena]

So here I sit outside of my FedEx hub, on my way in to pick up... you guessed it! A snake from Metcalf. Here’s hoping, since I didn’t get a mite email. I do have quarantine and pretreat. I just hope my new noodle is clean. Crap!!!!