Concerned about corkscrewing in a spider PT. 2

[Helium]

He does already have two hides, he has yet to use them. I will cover the rest of the tub.

I understand the life of the snake is valuable and it is possible he could survive, not thrive but simply survive, but after watching how he moves the majority of the time should I be considering having him euthanized and sent for testing for the sake of the other snakes I got with him as well as mine?

[zina10]

He does already have two hides, he has yet to use them. I will cover the rest of the tub.

I understand the life of the snake is valuable and it is possible he could survive, not thrive but simply survive, but after watching how he moves the majority of the time should I be considering having him euthanized and sent for testing for the sake of the other snakes I got with him as well as mine?

That is a very personal decision. Honestly, I would not blame you if you did.

If it is as bad as you say, the quality of life isn't there. You also have your other snakes to think of.

Of course it would be heart breaking to get all tests back "negative", and feel like you should have tried longer. But then, if we all had a Crystal Ball then life would be a lot easier.
You also have to think of your other snakes and what you may possibly be exposing them to. If you had told me what he does in the video is the WORST he does, I may have been inclined to wait this out. But if that is his better moments and if it is as bad as you explained. I don't see how that is any quality of life. Drowning in the water dish while being unable to control the body enough to get out, that is just a horrible way to go.

No one can make this decision for you, though. Ultimately it is up to you, and you will have to live with the consequences.

But if that is what you decide to do, I wouldn't hold it against you.

[CALM Pythons]

Him and the other snakes I picked up are all in tubs on my office desk with heat tape as a quarantine area. My other snakes are downstairs while these ones are upstairs.

They are all in tubs with blocked out sides so they can't see each other, with two hides and a water dish. That room is dark except for daylight coming through the closed blinds and the light when I come into the room, although I usually turn it on very dimly as to not startle the snakes.

That time his "movement" only lasted a short time, it usually lasts for longer, and consists of more twisting of the entire top section of his body, not just the neck. And not only that, he doesn't often right himself and slither away like he does in that video, he will stop with his head upside down for a short period then corkscrew again and often flop forward unintentionally and then stay still.

Im also concerned about the fact that I found him with his belly facing outwards and not to the ground

Id be nervous about my other snakes. The Video shows a severe Spider Wobble as of now......
the other weird things you described sounds like some kind of serious issue and Id make sure i washed very good before touching any of your snakes.. As a matter of fact if it is upside down and belly up on the ground as you described it would be gone already if it was me.


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[cchardwick]

I would say this is typical Spider wobble for a more severe case. I actually have two spiders that have a wobble / spin like that, a Spider Pied and a Pastel Spider Pied. Both eat just fine, will even take live just fine too. Just be sure to keep a smaller water dish in there with them, don't ever put them in a water tub to soak without constant supervision. I use the built in Dixie cups in my ARS tubs and that seems to work fine, they can get out of it no problem. I also like to spray them down with water instead of soaking them. I've seen this to a more severe extent with a Champagne in a pet store, the poor thing was crawling on his back belly up and couldn't flip himself over. Even though the movements are not natural they still thrive in all the cases that I've seen, it's just a bit strange. I haven't bred enough of my Spiders to know if the wobble is genetic to one specific line of Spiders or if it's just a random chance in any Spider line. I have a few spiders that are perfectly fine with no wobble at all.

[Caali]

For now I'd say it's the Spider Wobble (looking at that video) but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it's IBD. Just in case, I'd put him in quarantine in order to protect the other snakes. There are two things that come to my mind in your case:

1. Before I got my Bumblebee (Pastel + Spider) ball python, I had quite a long conversation with the breeder about the Spider gene. The married couple has been breeding ball pythons for many years and they told me that even a snake that was always fine can suddenly start to exhibit a very extreme case of the wobble. It is possible for sure but it happens rarely. I wonder if that might be the case with yours.
By the way the development goes both ways. A ball python with a severe wobble can become better to the point where the wobble is almost not noticeable.


2. IBD does not only come with corkscrewing. There are actually a few other symptoms to look out for. If you can say not to all of these questions, I think it's unlikely that it's IBD.
Doesn't the snake eat?
Have you ever seen the snake stargazing?
Have you ever noticed the tail of the snake twisting around?
Have you recently gotten any new snakes or is that snake new?
Did you ever see the snake having a seizure?
Does it look like the latter half of the snake's body is paralysed?
Does the snake appear disoriented?
Does the flickering of the tongue appear slower or has the tongue even stayed outside of his mouth for a longer period of time?
Does the animal appear slow?
Does the snake have different sized pupils (anisocoria) that only react to light tentatively?
If the snake lies on it's back, can't it go back to lying on it's stomach by itself?
If you suspect IBD to be the reason for the corkscrewing, bring the snake to the vet. It won't survive but at least you can protect it from suffering for a longer period of time.

[SDA]

I own a spider that even as an adult has and will do this when overly excited or stressed. You do what you want but if it were me I would put it in the least stressful environment I could and let it recover.

I watched your video and have had this happen with mine and he is still around and eating well and now that I have him an ideal environment, he does not do this. If he ever did again I would not even consider putting him down, I would simply leave him be.

That video is not showing anything to me but stress.

[zina10]

I'd like to say once again, what I saw in the video is a bad case of spider wobble.

However, what was DESCRIBED by the OP, is different. He said he couldn't get the "severe" stuff on video ...yet. A snake that is traveling upside down and stays upside down in water without being able to raise itself for 20 minutes, etc etc. I have no seen or heard of a "thriving/doing well" spider be that severe..

[Helium]

I haven't seen any stargazing and it has not eaten for me. He was recently acquired with a few other snakes from a neglectful household. I have not tried putting him on his back but I have seen his back half turned over, belly up.

I have an offer from someone with no other snakes to take him as a pet but Im concerned that I will no longer have a way to determine if there was something more serious with him if I do give him away. Not just that but I also have other snakes acquired from the same place who are also in quarantine that I would be hesitant to house near my other snakes not knowing what is wrong with this one.

I'm just at a loss for what to do. Obviously I don't want to put 'healthy' snake down but he acts far from healthy and even if it is a simple spider wobble I don't know if it would be fair to him to live his life acting the way he does.

I am happy to say that for the last 15 or so minutes I have been watching him he has only had a few minor corkscrews.

I think I may give him to said person and receive updates on him, if after a few weeks - a few months of settling he goes back to a normal spider behaviour I will consider taking the others out of QT. I believe this is the best option at the time

[SDA]

And they have only had it for about a week. Snakes can stress for the stupidest reasons to us and can take over a week to actually go full blown stress from a radical move.

With all things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one

[zina10]

Just follow your gut feeling on this one.

Do what you feel is right. No one can tell you what to do.

Sure, stress can and will make a spider worse.

But if I had a new animal in quarantine that showed severe symptoms such as the ones you were describing (not just what we saw in the video) to me, it would not be worth the risk to my existing animals.
That is exactly what quarantine is for. To establish if there is a problem. And if there is, to take care of it, whether that means a vet visit, tests, treatments, moving to another location or whatever.

Could it be an extreme version of spider wobble ? Sure.
Could it be more? Going by your description...definitely.

It doesn't have to be a disease either. Could have been caused by environment.

If you decide to keep it, I would practice strictest quarantine.