What's With Keeping Snakes In Racks Small Without Hides?

[zina10]

Hi,

Over the years I have tried both, and various substrates in them.



Disagreeing is allowed so no need to leave for a while.

All I can say is my snakes do better in a tub than they ever did in a large vivarium **shrug** I use newspaper substrate which they can get under if they feel exposed so, essentially, the entire tub is a hide that touches them on all sides even if they move from one end to the other. The only bit they cannot get under is where the heavy ceramic water bowls are.



I mainly find the most common thing they do with climbing structures once they get older is fall off them and look affronted at you. Males seem better at not doing so but I always worried they would fall on the rim of the waterbowl and hurt themselves.

My tubs are wardrobe drawers approx 3 foot by 2 so they can stretch ok from what I have seen - and they consistently eat better than they did in vivs ( my snakes only given as the example as I am familiar with them in both ) And I think you underestimate just how stubborn bp's can be if they do not like their environment. For decades everyone swore they were dodgy eaters in captivity - there is a reason we have as many keepers as we do posting their snakes eat ok. The snakes didn't change, the husbandry did.



This is sadly true - many ways work for all the various snakes out there. We have a narrower focus on what we recommend precisely because it will give fussy snakes the best chances of a good start and the more robust ones won't care and eat anyway. Once you can read your animals well enough there is little problem with mixing things up as long as you are prepared to deal with any problems that pop up.

Tolerance wouldn't hurt the community in this regard but, since we normally get people joining because they have a problem, we do over emphasise the basic model as we do not yet know the users capabilities. We'll work on it.


del

And yes, I will quote this post too, because another EXCELLENT one, that bears repeating !!!

That said, I keep most of my snakes in racks, but used to keep them all in tanks (first) and wonderful cages (later on).

Nowadays I only have ONE great display cage. I do enjoy it, and husbandry is SPOT ON, but I don't doubt for one second that the snake would actually prefer the rack. But that's just based on my experience and knowing my animals after many years of keeping them.

Racks can work great, cages can work great, tanks can be made to work, but they aren't ideal.

All across the board, the husbandry has to be RIGHT.

And if done right, yes, there are different ways to go about it. It only becomes a problem when one or the other is put down, when people say the animal "suffers" just because of what enclosure one has. There is a lot more to keeping them successfully, then just the enclosure..

Btw. It also makes a difference which species of snake one is talking about. I wouldn't keep Carpet Pythons, Russian Ratsnakes or any other species that enjoys more space and climbing in a rack. But I find Ball Pythons do EXCEPTIONALLY well in them.

[cchardwick]

Interesting thread... I started out keeping my ball pythons in glass tanks with hides. They hid all day long, it was like keeping a bunch of empty tanks around. And they didn't eat much at all. When I first put them in the rack system their appetite was incredible, they all would eat anything, probably would have eaten my shoe if I threw it in there!

A lot of people on this site complain about snake problems and most of those same people keep them in glass aquariums, I think just the opposite, it's cruel to keep them in glass tanks. It's like digging up an earthworm and putting it in an empty glass tank for everyone to see thinking it's going to thrive. Ball pythons live in the dark under termite mounds, not in glass tanks on your kitchen table LOL. A grey tub in a rack is about as close to their natural environment as you can get. If you are keeping ball pythons please ditch the glass aquariums! And remember, it's a snake not a fish!

[BluuWolf]

I keep my little ones in glass tanks currently, yes they do fine. Neither have ever missed a meal, their sheds are full, poop and pee like normal, ect. ect. BUT it took a lot to get everything just right and still more daily to keep it that way! I've become a broken record on here lately on how to keep up humidity in a tank and crazy how much you have to do and all these contrived tricks just to get things adequate and that's not even going on to temps or cleaning lol. And they don't even use the space, and even seems uncomfortable in it.

Now I happily do it all but you can bet before I get my next BP I'll be getting myself a rack system and use the tanks for a species that would appreciate and actually want the space. Now I will be getting larger tubs for the racks but I have the ability to do that sense I don't have as many animals and have that luxury but I would never knock a breeder or someone with lots of animals for having smaller, they simply don't use or need it.

Also, nobody is knocking you or trying to prove you wrong or make you look dumb. You shared your opinion as you have a right to on a public forum and asked what everyone else thought and people responded with they thought, just because it differs from yours doesn't mean they were saying it to be rude. You haven't made a fool of yourself, just made an interesting topic for people to discuss. And while the OP never said anything about tanks it's easy to see why others assumed that. The post was pretty brief, started off talking about tanks and saying they were cruel. We know know they meant the racks in the picture not all in general but the picture was taken down so people made assumptions. That's just how it goes.



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[KayLynn]

The tubs I keep my snakes in are set up like a tank enclosure. They have substrate, natural hides, water, and plant clutter. Just because it's a tub doesn't mean it has to be newspaper and no hides, which is the impression I get from most people who are against them. I believe rack systems are the best way to house ball pythons, not due to time and space (although those are nice bonuses), but because I've seen the difference of a snake in a tank vs tub, and 90% of the time they seem healthier and less stressed when they're in the tub.

When I first stared this hobby 10 years ago, I acquired 4 snakes within a year and a half, and at that time I had 2 years experience working at a facility that had large boas and pythons. They were all in tanks at the beginning, but I switched when I picked up my fourth snake. My snakes were already healthy and I took good care of them, I'd never had issues with RI's or food refusal, but I could still see a difference. Sheds were consistently much better, temps and humidity were WAY more consistent (I barely ever have to spray), they were less inclined to hiss or stress when I handled them, and the list goes on. When I saw the difference with the snakes I owned, I convinced the place I worked at to keep their snakes in a rack system when they weren't on display. In the long run the investment of a rack system saved them money, too.

Also, glass tanks are just a hassle regardless (in my opinion and my experience). If you want to keep a bp as a display animal and not struggle with humidity, temps and whatever else, there are cages - like the ones from AP - that function and look so much better than a tank ever could.

[MD_Pythons]

I was never trying to say racks were cruel I was just trying to advocate for bigger ones, the picture helps with that. I don't have an issue with racks.

[KayLynn]

Keeping a snake in any type of enclosure that is too small is detrimental.

[Newbie39]

I was never trying to say racks were cruel I was just trying to advocate for bigger ones, the picture helps with that. I don't have an issue with racks.

Some of us know what you meant. Don't worry about it. If people can't have an open discussion or debate on something that's their problem to deal with.

[AbsoluteApril]

the picture helps with that.

The picture was a close up of two animals breeding in a tub but it was impossible to see how large the tub was.
I'm glad you clarified it was the SIZE of the tub you were talking about because reading your first post, I took it as you were against tubs in general which seems to be why the thread turned out the way it did.

I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that snakes SHOULD be kept in tubs that are too small.

[distaff]

Thigmotropic refers to the preference some species of snakes have to being in a space where they press their bodies up against a solid surface. (p. 129, The complete Suboc, Rhoades. Took a while to find that term in the book. For all you young budding herpetologists who will be scientifically oriented books - include a damn index!)

I can only speak for my snakes (all North American species), but they use their hides much of the time, and prefer them on the small side. The Sonoran gopher jams herself into a tupperware that would seem entirely too small, but that one is always her first choice.

I would add hides even in a rack system. YMMV.

[honeybee]

At the moment I only have one beep, so a tank filled with decor and clutter and hides makes sense. If I had an abundance of these guys, which one day I plan to have, I would have no problem switching to a rack. Many people have had success with it! And my bp is hiding all day in the very dark, very mushed in back of his hide. He isn't really 'using' most of his tank for the majority of the day anyway.

However, I do agree that a hide even in a rack system along with some plant clutter can only be beneficial. Replicating their natural environment as much as possible is always a good thing with exotic pets IMO, and with stuff like dollar store foliage and reptile basics hides etc, it really only costs as much as you want it to. You can go all out and spend 100 bucks on reptile specific hides, or be cost effective and spend 20-30 bucks, maybe even less, on the stuff I mentioned above. If you can do it, why not?

That said, no cheap shots on people who provide minimal racks (ex. no hides, just a water dish, heating, and paper towel). I agree surviving and thriving are two different states, and I do personally believe enrichment like hides and clutter is, well, enriching - but these guys seem to do just fine in minimal rack systems.

And it's a lot easier said than done, my prices are just estimates. If you have a lot of snakes, providing hides and clutter, even dollar store stuff, adds up financially. I don't think reptile breeding should ever be a business first and foremost, but rather a passionate hobby that you make money from However, I understand a lot of people literally require a profit from selling their babies to keep their hobby going. IMO, as long as you can do that and keep your snakes happy and healthy, I don't see any issues with hideless/decorless racks.