Several years into proving out a potential new gene "AB", input appreciated!

[AB]

I have been working on this project for quite a few years, unfortunatelly I don't think I'm much closer to an answer as I was in the start. I am presenting what I have so far, all ideas and feedback are well appreciated!Back in 2014 I pasted a comparison of our "strange" normal female, which we bought from an Italian breeder in a package deal several years prior as a regular normal ball python. Back then I compared her to a Cinnamon, just to show how dark she really is. Please find pictures below.Here is the girl in question.Here she is being compared to a Cinnamon.3 years later, here is a most recent comparison. Original female is on the left. On the top is her son from the first clutch she had with us, back in 2014 - father of that clutch was a regular Enchi Lesser, none of the babies in that clutch looked like their mother, so I only kept one, this boy. Pattern on her son looks similar to a regular Enchi Lesser, however in reality he is very dark for an Enchi Lesser (he shedded 2 days prior to taking this picture, so he is as bright as he can be). Pythons on the bottom and right were hatched lin 2016 by breeding original female on the left to her son on the top (she hasn't been bred to any other males in years). Unfortunatelly there were only 2 viable eggs. What are these two pythons on bottom and right? Your guess is as good as mine. Pattern on the right one looks similar to a Lesser, but the color is totally off, in reality it's almost golden/green, Python on the bottom has a very similar pattern to his mother, but the color is totally different - reminds me of Mojave.I guess only time will tell what is going on here, if anything at all, but for now your input is well appreciated!Thank you for your time and Kind regards,Andrej

[paulh]

Are there any pictures of the first generation babies, aside from that dark Enchi Lesser son? What other males has she been bred to? Has she been bred to any of her sons? If so, what were the results?

A project with something like this generally needs to go more than 1 generation. See the breeding test page, page 13 of the NPA Project on Genetics, http://www.ringneckdove.com/NPA-ProjOnGenetics.pdf

That publication was meant for the people who raise pigeons, but genetics for one is the same as genetics for the other. The same breeding tests work for both.

Good luck.

[Cass]

Don't quit! She's a gorgeous female (I'm a big fan of dark snakes), and if she's a one off that's fine- but knowing would be better. I'd recommend at least 3-5 seasons. You could just be hitting bad odds.

[hollowlaughter]

I'd definitely consider breeding her out with something like a GHI if it were me, since that's kinda what she's reminding me of. See if doubling up on a similar basic morph produces solid results.

[hhw]

I'd agree that both probably have lesser in them, with the differences resulting from one being heterozygous and the other being homozygous for your dinker gene. Breed both to normals to see what results. I think you've at least proven the gene can be passed on already, but you'll really want to isolate it to see what it does.

[ElliotNess]

What I have discovered is when its time to "break down" the genes... is to a normal and a YellowBelly...

[OTorresUSMC]

Id say def something going on but you need to isolate it and the best thing for that is to put her to a normal. See what hatches and then breed them back or together. Now I've never taken on a dinker so clearly take what I say with a grain of salt haha. I just think that would be my game plan if I were doing this. Def to a normal.

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[AB]

Are there any pictures of the first generation babies, aside from that dark Enchi Lesser son? What other males has she been bred to? Has she been bred to any of her sons? If so, what were the results?
Good luck.

To answer your questions, ever since we got her in 2013, she was only bred to 2 males. First one is a Lesser Enchi, she was bred to him only this first 1 season - picture below.



This first generation pairing produced 4 hatchlings.
First one is an Enchi Lesser boy (this one we kept and bred him back to his mother, so this is the second male mentioned above ).



Second hatchling was a normal.



Third and fourth were both Enchis.





Looking at these 4 babies, back then we didn't see anything special about them, we sold 3 long ago, and only kept that dark Enchi Lesser.

Ever since that first generation clutch, she has only been bred to her son, dark Enchi Lesser, no other males. Together, they produced 2 clutches.
First one had 2 hatchlings, the ones you see in group picture at start of this post.
Second clutch (this year's clutch) only produced 1 baby, a normal.



So here is my thinking. This original female was sold to us as a normal python that was a multiple-times proven breeder. This must mean that the babies she produced didn't look special or different. and so the breeder thought she was just a funny looking normal that was not genetic (I can't get in contact with the breeder, so this is something I can't check for a fact, but it would be the logical conclusion). The first clutch she had at my place also confirms this. 4 babies she produced don't seem different, other than, maybe, being a little darker. However when bred to her son, even though we unfortunatelly only got 2 eggs in that clutch (eggs weren't fertilized - I suspect the female is old and will soon not be able to produce anymore at all), we can definitely see some sort of an impact on the babies. This year's clutch only produced one normal baby, that looks "different" from a regular normal.
Based on what was written, my current (hypotetical) idea is, that this is a recessive mutation - 2 babies in group picture at start of this post both (or maybe only one) carry the mutation of the mother, one of them most likely in combination with Lesser from their father. Normal from this year's clutch is just a 100% het --> all of this still needs to be proven ofcourse.

[paulh]

I am not so sure the second ("normal") hatchling from the first clutch is actually a normal. The "alien heads" along the sides are irregular with the eyes run together into bars like the mother. And could that baby be darker than normal? Could the old female's obvious dark color have partly been from age? I have more questions than answers.

Some mutations produce subtle changes from normal. The original owner may have overlooked what you noticed or ignored it.

IMO, a female ball python should be breeding until dead or over 30 years old, whichever comes first.

Good luck with the project.

[mwolf]

Cool project! At this point, I'd probably try repeating that pairing to the son enchi lesser yet again (since there were only a few eggs) and see what comes out. The other two lesser/mojave looking offspring I'd try pairing to normals or single gene morphs to try to see whether the morph is indeed recessive or not.