Questions About Producing Super Ball Hybrids

[Aedryan Methyus]

I am very interested in producing some Super Balls at some point and I have a few questions that i'm hoping some of you guys could shed a little light on...

1) Does anyone know where I could find photos and/or videos of Sumatran x Ball hybrids and Borneo x Ball hybrids?

2) Would the pairing have to be a male Ball with a female Blood/Short Tail or could it be a male Blood/Short Tail with a female Ball?

3) Would both of the parent's genes be passed on to the offspring? For instance; If I crossed a Fire Ball Python with a Red Blood Python, would it make the offspring a brighter red?

Is the Super Ball shown at 1:13 in this video what all of the offspring would look like with a normal Red Blood x normal Ball or would some turn out red?

[paulh]

1. I did a web search with the key words ball python blood python hybrids. There were a number of pictures among the hits.

2. I think either way would work as long as the male is not much bigger than the female. I have no direct experience, though.

3. Each baby gets one gene from each of the mother's gene pairs and one gene from each of the father's gene pairs. Hybrid babies tend to be more or less intermediate between the parents. IMO, half the babies from a fire ball python x normal red blood python would get the fire gene and be more red than the babies that did not get the fire gene. However, I greatly doubt that those fire babies would be as red as the blood python parent. That's the way it works with creamsicle corn snakes.

For what it's worth, I am not impressed by any of the hybrid pythons.

[Aedryan Methyus]

Thanks, Paul. I can't find any photos or videos of Sumatran x Balls or Borneo x Balls, though. The only ones I can find are of Blood x Balls. If anyone happens to know of any, please be sure to let me know. In my opinion, I would think Sumatran x Balls would look the best of the three. I think the darkness, markings and girth of the Sumatrans combined with the colors, markings and length of Balls would look pretty sweet. On the other hand, it seems like a Ball crossed with a Blood or Borneo would simply produce brown snakes...

So, let's say I crossed a Sumatran with a Fire Ball... Would the non-visual offspring be Het for Fire and if so, what percentage?

Other than being careful to not put a huge male Blood/Short Tail with a female Ball that is much smaller, does anyone see any reason why that wouldn't be safe for the female?

[AbsoluteApril]

So, let's say I crossed a Sumatran with a Fire Ball... Would the non-visual offspring be Het for Fire and if so, what percentage?

No.
Fire is a co-dom trait so only the visual fires in the clutch would carry the fire gene. The 'morph' genetics will work the same as they do in BPxBP or any other species.

[BPGator]

No.
Fire is a co-dom trait so only the visual fires in the clutch would carry the fire gene. The 'morph' genetics will work the same as they do in BPxBP or any other species.

Is this true? I've always considered recessive and dominant to be relative to the gene it's paired with. So in a Ball, the 'fire' gene is dominant to the 'normal' gene therefore it's visual. But in the Ball to Blood hybrid, is it not possible for the Blood's 'normal' gene to be dominant to the Ball's 'fire' gene thereby making the 'fire' gene recessive in the hybrid animal.


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[asplundii]

The amelanistic mutant gene in corn snakes tests as T-negative albino with the dopa test, but it is actually a nonfunctional version of the OCA2 gene. (T-negative means the gene is a nonfunctional version of the gene that produces the tyrosinase enzyme. OCA2 stands for oculo-cutaneous albinism 2.) So there you have two "T-negative" mutant genes that have different locations in the cell nucleus.

Small correction Paul; the T in T-neg is shorthand for tryrosinase which is the enzyme responsible for the very first step in the melanin biosynthesis pathway. A loss-of-function mutation to this gene causes the entire biosynthesis pathway to collapse as the process never gets started. The OCA2 gene (aka P gene), is actually a T-pos type mutant as tryrosinase is present in these mutants. The mutation is corn snakes was always just assumed to be T-neg but genetic evidence (I have not seen a DOPA-test in the literature but I have the genetic paper in my archives) showed this not to be the case. Further, OCA2 mutants still produce melanin but it is a defect within the melanocyte itself that prevents pigmentation.

I am not aware of any boa or python albino mutations that have had the dopa test or any other biochemical tests run. When used with boas and pythons, T-negative albino generally means no visible black pigment (melanin). T-positive albino means some melanin but less than normal. That leaves a good bit of room for error.

To the best of my knowledge the only genetic evidence we have for any snake "albino" is the corns. In everything else we just assume the classic yellow/white or red/white is a T-neg but, as the corns taught us, that assumption is potentially incorrect.

Is this true? I've always considered recessive and dominant to be relative to the gene it's paired with. So in a Ball, the 'fire' gene is dominant to the 'normal' gene therefore it's visual. But in the Ball to Blood hybrid, is it not possible for the Blood's 'normal' gene to be dominant to the Ball's 'fire' gene thereby making the 'fire' gene recessive in the hybrid animal.

This is true. If you think about it, the WT gene (or an ortholog of it) will be in each species because they have a common ancestor that had the gene. This is exactly the reason you can get an Albino BurmBall, both species carry the same albino type gene. So the Fire allele in balls will have a WT, non-Fire allele in bloods and you will see the incomplete-dominant effect. How exactly that is expressed would have to be seen but the effect will not be radically different as witness the Spider ball x carpet, the Jag carpet x ball, and the SpinnerBlast ball x carpondro. All of those hybrids exhibited mutant phenotypes that behaved exactly along the lines you would expect.

[paulh]

Is this true? I've always considered recessive and dominant to be relative to the gene it's paired with. So in a Ball, the 'fire' gene is dominant to the 'normal' gene therefore it's visual. But in the Ball to Blood hybrid, is it not possible for the Blood's 'normal' gene to be dominant to the Ball's 'fire' gene thereby making the 'fire' gene recessive in the hybrid animal.


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It is possible for the ball python's fire gene to be recessive to the blood python's normal gene. But that is far less common than acting the same way as with the ball python normal gene. Experimental data is needed to be certain.

....


This is true. If you think about it, the WT gene (or an ortholog of it) will be in each species because they have a common ancestor that had the gene. This is exactly the reason you can get an Albino BurmBall, both species carry the same albino type gene. ....

One of my genetics profs had an albino pigeon x ringneck dove hybrid (different genera). He was always careful to say that the albino mutants in the two species were alleles rather than identical. There are many ways to screw up a gene, and only DNA sequencing could show whether the two mutants were identical. The domestic pigeon genome either has been or is in the process of being sequenced. I don't think the dove genome has been sequenced yet.

By the way, Aedryan Methyus, an Albino Ball could be compatible with either a T-negative or T-positive Blood. I am using the T-neg and T-pos terms in the loosest possible way. In corns, the amelanistic mutant gene (T-neg, no melanin) and the ultra mutant gene (T-pos, less than normal melanin) are compatible. In boa constrictors, the Sharp albino mutant gene (T-neg, no melanin) and the boawoman caramel mutant gene (T-pos, less than normal melanin) are compatible. So the equivalent of Sharp albino in one species and boawoman caramel in the other would be T-neg to T-pos compatibility. Sharp albino equivalent in both species would be T-neg to T-neg compatibility.

[JodanOrNoDan]

I can't help you that much on the genetics of the thing. Hybridization is not something I have studied much. Maybe one of the genetics guys will jump in with something productive. What I do want to make you aware of is being careful about where you have this discussion. People on here are pretty mellow but there are some who have very strong negative opinions on the subject in general. I personally don't have a problem with it as long as the animals are coming out healthy and they are being sold as what they are.

[Aedryan Methyus]

I can't help you that much on the genetics of the thing. Hybridization is not something I have studied much. Maybe one of the genetics guys will jump in with something productive. What I do want to make you aware of is being careful about where you have this discussion. People on here are pretty mellow but there are some who have very strong negative opinions on the subject in general. I personally don't have a problem with it as long as the animals are coming out healthy and they are being sold as what they are.

I know this is a touchy subject for some people. I feel the same as you about it... Just so the offspring are healthy and fertile and they are sold exactly as what they are, I don't see the harm. My only concern would be if/when they exchanged hands in the future after the initial sale. I would hope that the future owners would be honest and responsible enough to make sure the buyers fully understood their genetics. At the same time, I feel like Bloods, Sumatrans and Borneos should be kept pure and not crossed with each other. I definitely look forward to making some Woma Balls in the not too distant future, too. Those are definitely awesome looking and I think they will open up a lot of very interesting possibilities for line breeding in the future!

No.
Fire is a co-dom trait so only the visual fires in the clutch would carry the fire gene. The 'morph' genetics will work the same as they do in BPxBP or any other species.

Thanks, April! That makes sense... Here's an interesting thought... What if an albino Ball was crossed with an Albino Blood? Also, what if the Ball and Blood were both only Het Albino? Could they still produce Albino offspring?

[AbsoluteApril]

What if an albino Ball was crossed with an Albino Blood?

Bloods have T+ and T- versions of albino. Assuming neither is compatible with the albino gene in BP, breeding albino ball x albino blood would result in hybrids double het for both. Breeding those offspring would get you hybrid albinos expressing either of the albino genes or both at the same time. Would someone be able to tell the difference? I'm not sure.

It's kind of like the people that wanted to breed kahl strain and sharp strain albino boas to get DH and try to produce a snake expressing both strains, why? It most likely wouldn't look any different than a normal albino and all it would cause is mass confusion over which genes the animal actually carried.

Also, what if the Ball and Blood were both only Het Albino? Could they still produce Albino offspring?

Only if the albino genetics were the same in both species; both carried the compatible albino gene on the same locus. I assume they would not.

If you want to bring albino into the hybrid, my suggestion would be to pick one or the other, albino ball or one of the strain of albino blood, and use that to create your hets and then breed the hets for the visual.

Look at cremecicle corns, they are an albino hybrid of corn snake and emory rat snake, the albino gene comes from the corn snake. They are a pale orange color, the natural muted colors of the emory reduced the overall bright reds that were in the albino corn.

I hope this helps?