A note on ball python cage sizes - lessons from Germany

[Regius_049]

It seems like nearly every day there is a post on here regarding cage sizing for ball pythons. I have often, if not always, recommended nothing less than a 40 gallon breeder or roughly 36" x 18" (floor dimensions) for an adult ball python. I understand as well as many on this board that certainly, one size does not fit all. While I have personally not experienced it, there are cases of extremely finicky eaters and animals that simply do poorly outside a "smaller than recommended" enclosure even if husbandry conditions were otherwise ideal. That said, I would wager that 98% of captive ball pythons can be acclimated and thrive in larger enclosures. Zoological institutions have managed this for years and some instances note improved muscle tone alongside other benefits.

To be sure, when raising baby or younger ball pythons, it would be hard to argue a properly setup tub enclosure is not the way to go. Tubs are cheap, easy to clean, and make observation for any issues extremely simple. Also, they can be upgraded rather easily and inexpensively. This post is mainly tailored towards adult ball python enclosures or "final" enclosure sizes for newcomers needing enclosure advice and those who are focused on keeping ball pythons mainly as pets and not those creating a large scale breeding operation. I realize with large breeding operation in a home, it may not be practical to use such caging sizes unless you have a separate operation along the lines of big breeders like Starpythons.

As a starting point, I make the suggestion of a 40 gallon breeder or better yet, a T-8/T-10 equivalent enclosure (48" x 24") based on practicality and available floor space. In my experience, when dealing with adult ball pythons, one requires a reasonably large hide in order to accommodate an adult animal. As an example, I extensively use an recommend these generic hide boxes designed for snakes and other reptiles. I find the large size hide near ideally suitable for adult snakes less than approximately 2000g. For snakes 2000g+, I use the x-large hides, which are roughly 16" x 11". Using these hides as a benchmark, if one were to use the often suggested 20 gallon tank or CB-70 tub, you would be unable to fit either of these hides into a 20 gallon long and 2 large hides just barely into the CB-70, with the x-large hide being impractical. However, if you were to attempt to place two of these hides into a CB-70 without a water dish, you would be taking up 54% of your available floor space, leaving maybe 18" for a water dish and space to roam. With CB-70 tubs being only 6" tall, there really isn't room for snakes to prowl on top of these hides. Now, to be sure, you could use hide of different proportions, but ball pythons are relatively thick snakes for their size and take up a substantial amount of volume, meaning you have to make sacrifices one way or another. In rack systems, you can "cheat" to some degree as the rack operates as something of a defacto hide for the entire enclosure, but you see the point I am making.

Secondly, when doing some research regarding Tokay gecko enclosure sizes, I came across a post or advice from a German herpetologist who noted that (and I paraphrase here):

"The internet in dominated by US philosophies on reptile keeping, which has a tendency to be very cheap in regards to enclosure sizes, which I cannot endorse. Most reptiles can survive decades, reproduce, and be perfectly healthy in smaller caging. However, they do not show their full behavior and something is lost from the natural tenancies of the reptile when confined to smaller quarters. I believe you will find most German herpetologists you might ask would agree to these assertions. You can follow whichever philosophies you so wish when considering reptile husbandry, but after 40+ years as both a biologist and a herper, these are my thoughts."

Continuing along this train of thought, in 1997 in Germany, an official guideline was published regarding reptile caging for keepers. The committee was made up of zoological institutions, animal rights individuals (gasp), and private herpers. The official guideline can be found here if you so wish to peruse it, as it has guidelines for most reptile species:

http://www.bmel.de/cae/servlet/conte...gReptilien.pdf (Disclaimer, its in German)

For those who do not wish to scroll through the document, there is a section with tables where python enclosure sizes are discussed (page 30). For specimens under 2.5 meters (read all ball pythons), recommended enclosure dimensions are 1.0 x 0.5 x 0.75 multiplied by the length of the snake. For example, if you have a 4-foot snake (roughly the average size of a ball python), your enclosure should be: 4 ft x 2 ft x 3 ft. If you have a 3-foot snake, your enclosure would be 36" x 18" x 27". Now I grant you that height is fairly debatable for terrestrial species, but I believe the floor space is worthy of serious consideration. It also nicely corresponds to what people are using from Animal Plastics and Constrictors NW caging. I can attest using a 48" x 24" gives you a decent amount of space to place two hides and water dish while leaving space for your snake to move about. You do not have to use these exact dimensions from the guideline as after all, not everyone is from Germany, but if what you are providing is much smaller than the guideline, you may wish to reconsider. I personally have redone several habitats which I felt were not providing adequate space for other species using this document as a guide.

This is not an attempt to bully those who are using smaller enclosures nor a brag, but a hopeful post for your consideration. Not only do I think it provides great dividends for your snake and for your own viewing pleasure and satisfaction, I believe it elevates the hobby as a whole in the eyes of, let us call them, "non-snake people" who might otherwise disparage the hobby.

[JodanOrNoDan]

Just to put things in perspective, how many ball pythons do you have and how long have you been keeping them? Do you have enough data to agree or disagree with the information you have presented?

What are the behaviors you have observed that makes you think the suggestions presented have merit?

[Sauzo]

When i had my 4.5' girl in a T10, she ate like a champ. Then i poached the T10 for my retic and gave the BP a T8. She ate poorly in that. I got my retic and boas T25s and gave the T10 back to my BP and she has gone back to eating like a champ, coming out and 'playing' at night and now has gone into shed.

I dont know if it was the cage size or just the a coincidence of the time of year when i switched caging but there was definitely a change in eating and behavior between the T8 and T10.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

The internet in dominated by US philosophies on reptile keeping, which has a tendency to be very cheap in regards to enclosure sizes, which I cannot endorse.

This is not an attempt to bully those who are using smaller enclosures nor a brag

Really?

Good thing is that there is more than one way to skin a cat and if what you do works for you good don't change a thing, however if people come here and have issues they will get advice based on experience, things that are PROVEN to work and not something based on a so called "US Philosophy of being cheap" - I am French BTW so don't think I am insulted and this is was prompted my answer.

I see people every year that think their way is the one and only way when it's not, it's never about how I keep my snakes or how you keep your snakes, it's about providing a proven solution that will allow a new owner to get back on tract as they learn what trigger their animals and know what to expect and how to troubleshoot their problem themselves.

Trust me if I was recommending to new owner what I do and how I keep MY animals they would fail.

[Sauzo]

And i do agree with caging sizes to an extent. From a business/breeder standpoint, it would just take up way too much room to give each snake a huge cage. The animals are not being 'abused' in any way as long as their requirements are being met with temps/humidity/food/cleaning etc. So while the animal might not express its full behavior, it is still being taken care of and flourishing.

Now from an owners standpoint which i am as i dont intend to breed, i like to give my snakes the most room i can afford while still keeping it reasonable. I mean i just dropped $2000 down on 3 AP T25s for my SD retic and big boas and they are loving it but would i like to give them a 20' cage, sure but thats just not feasible even though i have my own home. It's basically a juggling act between seize of the cage and size of the space available.

I personally try and offer my snakes a cage length that is at least 3/4 their body length. This is why i went with 6' cages instead of something like 5' cages. And depending how much more my retic grows, I might end up having to bite the bullet and order him an 8x3 AP T65 and then find a place i can put it.

So personally i see both methods working. I mean smaller caging or racks have worked for years and years and years and all the CBB snakes being sold throughout the years are proof of it. But also the large spacious natural setup works well too. For me, i go more minimalist set up for ease of cleaning but i do interact with my animals a lot and take them out of their cages for outside time as well as indoor enrichment.

Anyways I'm rambling but bottom line is i see both methods have merits and both working depending on your set ups. It's the same as the old argument about RHPs vs Flexwatt. Both work equally well depending on your set ups.

[Sonny1318]

Maybe I misssed the point, I've used "reptile specific housing" and tanks from 10 to 55. I've fed mice and I've used rats. I was all UTH then red bulbs. Like Deborah said if it works, and is in the best interest of the animal. But yeah you just sound angry.

[Regius_049]

Just to put things in perspective, how many ball pythons do you have and how long have you been keeping them? Do you have enough data to agree or disagree with the information you have presented?

What are the behaviors you have observed that makes you think the suggestions presented have merit?

An excellent critique. For reference, I have been keeping ball pythons and other reptiles for probably 20-25 years and I currently have 8 ball pythons (4 adult, and younger ones). I have raised perhaps 5-6 using the tub -> larger enclosure with good results, but admittedly hardly enough for me to claim my personal experience merits a significant "n" value. That said, given these guidelines are more or less requirements in Germany and they are not having widespread issues in ball python husbandry, it's probably fair to say at minimum, they aren't doing any worse than anywhere in regards to snakes thriving in their care.

So there are probably enough keepers using larger enclosures with good success to make an equivalency argument that snakes can be kept completely healthy in smaller enclosures or in larger ones, so perhaps I should approach this differently, given the aforementioned, if you can keep a snake equally healthy in both enclosures, does it merit the snake and keeper to use the larger enclosure? To quote (I believe) Greg Maxwell, "I could keep a green tree python healthy in a bucket if I had to". If one can do that, is a bucket then an acceptable enclosure size? I am obviously not advocating such a practice, but throwing it out there as a counter. If a snake is eating and free of mites / disease, is any "enclosure" acceptable? Or should be there some allowance for space considering the animal will likely spend its entire life (15+ years) in captive care? How would one measure what is acceptable?

I have some additional thoughts, but am curious to see your reply / interested in having something of an academic discussion on enclosure sizes in general.

Really?

Good thing is that there is more than one way to skin a cat and if what you do works for you good don't change a thing, however if people come here and have issues they will get advice based on experience, things that are PROVEN to work and not something based on a so called "US Philosophy of being cheap" - I am French BTW so don't think I am insulted and this is was prompted my answer.

I see people every year that think their way is the one and only way when it's not, it's never about how I keep my snakes or how you keep your snakes, it's about providing a proven solution that will allow a new owner to get back on tract as they learn what trigger their animals and know what to expect and how to troubleshoot their problem themselves.

Trust me if I was recommending to new owner what I do and how I keep MY animals they would fail.

I apologize if my tone appears judgemental and am disappointed you took it to be what appears to be an overall negative message, but you'll note that one portion you've quoted are not my words and one portion is. I did, as best I can tell, never say that my way was the only way, but offered suggestion and encouragement into selecting larger adult enclosures.

But yeah you just sound angry.

Which portion of the post makes you think I sound angry?

[JodanOrNoDan]

I have some additional thoughts, but am curious to see your reply / interested in having something of an academic discussion on enclosure sizes in general.

An academic discussion I am willing to have. For future reference, these type of things need to go into the advanced husbandry section. The reason why is in Deborah's post above. It is my belief one of the main reasons this site exists is to help new keepers. Generally replies to threads are geared to keep new keepers out of trouble. First and foremost when it comes to how to keep these animals is keeping them alive and many new owners have problems with this because they do not have the experience to read their animals and or they have not done their homework before bringing an animal home.

My experiences with keeping these animals are limited to my collection and this board. I am an engineer by trade and efficiency is what I am about. I have been keeping reptiles for about forty years. I did not get super serious about ball pythons until the last few years and now consider myself a small breeder. I have about fifty permanent animals in my collection and about another fifty out of the egg or soon to be. My operation is operating room clean. All animals are checked on and maintained multiple times daily. It is a family activity that everyone participates in. Much of my personal enjoyment with these animals is learning what makes them tick. I have kept many other animals over the years and have spent much time working on farms dealing with cows, pigs, chickens, horses etc.

All my ball pythons are kept in clear tubs. The only difference between any of them is the size of the tub. All my hatchlings are handled daily. All my adults except two ingrates are out multiple times a week being handled by various members of my family. I am primarily breeding for large, easy eating, easy going animals and most of my collection reflects that. I would most likely be considered cheap by many. Engineers and business people would say I am efficient. I will not spend money on a hide if half a milk jug works just as well. I built my own racks.

All of that said, this discussion is really pretty cut and dried to me. Ball pythons thrive in environments that would be considered confined for other species. Many can do well in larger quarters but just as many others do not. Almost 100% of the time eating and behavioral problems with these animals can be solved by going smaller, not larger. For the most part these animals like to feel very secure. Let a few go on the floor some time. Almost every time the animal is going to head for the darkest tightest space it can find. I have only found a few exceptions to this rule. Every so often you will find animals that just like to hang out for whatever reason. I have a couple of large girls like this. They will just lay wherever I put them and just watch whatever is going on for relatively long periods of time. The other exception is with males. Males will often be more active than females. They will throw safety to the wind in the quest to find a female. Oddly enough some of the hardest eating problems I have had to solve involve males and the solution is almost always to confine them even though they are generally more active than the females.

Oh, and as an aside, we do have a German lady on this site that now lives in the US. I'm pretty sure she keeps her BP's in tubs.

[Regius_049]

For future reference, these type of things need to go into the advanced husbandry section. The reason why is in Deborah's post above. It is my belief one of the main reasons this site exists is to help new keepers. Generally replies to threads are geared to keep new keepers out of trouble. First and foremost when it comes to how to keep these animals is keeping them alive and many new owners have problems with this because they do not have the experience to read their animals and or they have not done their homework before bringing an animal home.

Noted. I actually did not even notice the advanced husbandry section until very recently.

My experiences with keeping these animals are limited to my collection and this board. I am an engineer by trade and efficiency is what I am about. I have been keeping reptiles for about forty years. I did not get super serious about ball pythons until the last few years and now consider myself a small breeder. I have about fifty permanent animals in my collection and about another fifty out of the egg or soon to be. My operation is operating room clean. All animals are checked on and maintained multiple times daily. It is a family activity that everyone participates in. Much of my personal enjoyment with these animals is learning what makes them tick. I have kept many other animals over the years and have spent much time working on farms dealing with cows, pigs, chickens, horses etc.

All my ball pythons are kept in clear tubs. The only difference between any of them is the size of the tub. All my hatchlings are handled daily. All my adults except two ingrates are out multiple times a week being handled by various members of my family. I am primarily breeding for large, easy eating, easy going animals and most of my collection reflects that. I would most likely be considered cheap by many. Engineers and business people would say I am efficient. I will not spend money on a hide if half a milk jug works just as well. I built my own racks.

I will start by expanding on my previous comments that in respect to a small-scale breeding operation, one would be hard pressed to argue that what De Vosjoli calls LAM (Laboratory Animal Method) tub/rack setups are not the most optimal (or the most efficient). By LAM, I refer to the typical hides, water dish and paper towek / newspaper / etc. setup. They allow a larger number of animals to be kept in a smaller space, allow for very careful observation of fecal matter, presence of parasites, and easy sterilization of enclosures. Ball pythons being relatively easy going and hardy captives do well and usually breed readily with such an approach. I will also point out that when considering a variety of other captive species, minimum enclosure sizes tend be more relaxed when the occupant is taken out and handled / allowed to roam on a regular basis. This allows for socialization, exercise, and environmental stimulation that may otherwise be absent on limited in their enclosures. In regards to python "socialization", while I am not extremely well read on the topic, I would suspect specimens that are more frequently handled (particularly as neonates or younger snakes) become indifferent to handling and keeper presence to a degree other captives are not (i.e. those only handled when immediate maintenance is required), potentially subjecting them to a lesser degree of stress over a lifetime. I should note in other species, this can vary widely from individual to individual and is more effective during the younger "formative" years.

That said, I do believe their is an amount of reasonable evidence that many reptile species may be better of in and prefer a larger enclosure if given the opportunity. In his book, De Vosjoli notes that:

"with the LAM method, the minimum enclosure size for keeping reptiles is humane, but constraining. The full range of snake behaviors will not be expressed in small, sterile cages. Small enclosure size and minimum landscaping play a key role in the perception that snakes are dull creatures. Given adequate space, you will observe a much broader behavioral repertoire and greater levels of responsive behaviors. Small enclosures limit environment-related behaviors, exploratory behavior, territorial behavior, and owner-related behavior."

Personally, I don't know that I have ever heard snakes called "dull creatures", but perhaps that perception exists outside my personal experience. However, while being skeptical that this was anthropomorphized logic and lacking in scientific fact, I found this notion at limited reptile behaviors interesting. As an anecdotal example, when feeding larger ball pythons, I observed a slight difference in feeding behavior. In a CB-70 tub (height ~ 6"), when swallowing larger prey, my ball pythons would attempt to raise their head and upper portions when close to end of swallowing a rodent. Occasionally the would bump their heads into the top of the tub, but when I removed it, they would raise up perhaps 8-10" and tilt the head back and allow gravity to assist in prey swallowing. To be sure, all snakes still fed and managed to swallow prey fine in closed tubs, but is an example of enclosure size visibly limiting natural behavior. Admittedly however, I do have animals that appear to prefer eating inside of a small, enclosed hide.

Looking to the literature, unfortunately there is very little in regards to academic study in regards to reptile behavior, preference, and satisfaction. There is even less, if any, on ball pythons specifically, thus most keepers are limited to the experience of others to point us in the right direction. Unfortunately this leads to to assertions that are unsupported by facts or follow the logic of "well it works for me so far, so it must be fine", leading to a wide variety of opinions among keepers with little academic study. Some good examples are that superworms / mealworms can burrow out of a live reptile's stomach, mealworms possess too much indigestible chitin as a feeder food, etc. Some of these being outright myths and others being the topic of debate with only anecdotal experience as a guide. In an attempt to get back on track, there have been a few studies and notations in the literature regarding reptile behavior. C. Warwick published a short series of papers on the topic and after the study of 4000+ reptiles kept in captivity, he notes that "enclosures that limit natural locomotion and exercise can result in physiological imbalances, loss of condition or injury". While hardly analogous to ball pythons, he mentions nose-rubbing behavior in water dragons, which is often related to enclosures that restrict natural locomotion. Exercise and mobility have long been correlated to imrpoved physical conition and improved health in captive species. There are a few studies involving aerobic training in reptiles with mixed results. In certain lizards (fence lizards, racerunners, etc.) aerobic exercise had little effect on the appear condition and running speed of the animal, but in anoles, their apparent condition increased with notable improvements in speed and endurance. The authors note however that it is difficult to accurately describe this phenomena as reptiles are quite sensitive to stress and it is difficult to aerobically exercise a reptile without human intervention or stimuli and that this phenomena is likely species dependant.

A friend of mine is I suppose what you might call a "medium scale" breeder of Drymarchon snakes and believes exercise in breeding snakes to be of serious consideration. Like you, he also frequently lets out his captive specimens for handling, but also enrichment. For example, to bask in natural sunlight and explore outside environments. He believes this exercise to be of import because after switching to this behavior he noticed positive results in female egg laying and fewer problems with egg-binding. His thought is this additional enrichment and exercise improves muscle tone, which makes egg laying easier for the female. While hardly proof of causation, I think it merits thought as I have heard similar assertions from veterinarians who have experience with larger reptiles such as iguanas and large constrictors, which are commonly kept in proportionally small enclosures as providing large enclosures for an already large reptile is often more difficult. Now I suspect many keepers would wan to avoid as (1) ball pythons are quite different than a large colubrid and are more opportunistic feeders, likely stressing easily in a more open environment like a backyard or field, (2) bringing an animal outside exposes it to potential parasites and disease. Thus, to provide a safer form of exercise, I would likely merit the keeper to do so indoors or provide a larger and more furniture diverse enclosure that would encourage such behavior.

Regarding "weflare", a few studies have been done with box turtles and leopard geckos to gauge preference and the effects of enrichment on captive reptiles. The box turtles study compared a "barren environment" to an "enriched environment" where the barren environment consisted of only paper substrate and a water dish, while the enriched environment consisted of a cypress mulch, shredded paper, a water dish, and a hide. Turtles unsurprisingly spent 90% of their time on the enriched side and spent less effort attempting to escape when in that environment. This study would have been interesting had the authors placed an equivlanet hide on the barren side for comparison. The leopard gecko study was however an imrpovement. The authors exposed leopard geckos to 5 types of enrichment: (1) thermal, (2) food, (3) olefactory, (4) object, and (4) visual. Unsurprisingly, thermal and food were the most popular, but a significant portion (~30%) was spent investigating and interacting with stimuli 3-5. The authors concluded that leopard geckos benefitted from feeding, thermal, and novel object enrichment. Also, "They engaged more with enrichment that added complexity to meeting their basic physiological or behavioral needs than with novel objects. This implies geckos have behavioral priorities, will use novel stimuli to perform highly-motivated behaviors like hunting and behavioral thermoregulation, and are motivated by information gathering, as has been suggested for mammals and birds." They also mention that there is growing evidence that enrichment is being shown to benefit turtles, tortoises, corn snakes, rat snakes, and chuckwallas in captive environments.

In short, it may prove out that ball pythons are indeed optimally housed in rack style systems, but to say that the subject is pretty "cut and dried" I think is incorrect.

[Dumdum333]

people on this site are so prickly if you question them even a little bit 😂😂😂