Starting New Hatchlings: What's Going Wrong?

[Alicia]

First, if at all possible, please do work out a source for live mice. I realize they're another time commitment, but have you considered breeding your own feeders? I know you're sick to death of hearing it, but getting access to live rodents is the most important thing you can do. That out of the way, as someone who starts the overwhelming majority of their babies on f/t, here's what I do:

* Once the babies have shed, each gets its own 6 qt shoe box with a water dish and hide (the hide is REALLY important! Seriously, don't scrimp on hides!!) on a folded paper towel. I glance over the tiny tubs daily, to make sure I don't have to clean or change the water, but leave the baby alone. I don't lift the hide, I don't do anything with the baby unless I have to.
* A full week after their shed and being left basically undisturbed, I thaw out hopper mice. I thaw at room temp, dry, for a few hours -- until the mice are fully thawed and no longer cold. I thaw in the snake room.
* In late evening, I heat the mice under a 60 watt incandescent bulb for ~6 - 10 minutes. Until they are warmed through and feel "living" to the touch.
* I quietly slide open the tubs and lay the mouse near the front using thin tongs, in view of the hide, but not right up in it. I do not zombie dance these mice. Maybe it's just me, I can never do it right, and it scares the babies.
-- Usually 50 - 60% of the babies will take on the first try for me. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
* Lights go out, I leave the babies undisturbed until the following morning. Then water is changed, any uneaten mice are removed. (I don't disturb babies whose mice are gone, I just let them digest.)
* I wait another week, even for babies who have eaten. Then I repeat the procedure.
* Babies that have not eaten after the second offering are switched to either cypress mulch or shredded aspen, depending on what I have on hand. The important thing is to make a nest of substrate beneath the hide as this helps them feel secure.
* Repeat. Any babies that have not eaten in four offerings of f/t are offered live. I prefer mouse crawlers, about when the eyes are just opening, because they provide movement, but are still harmless should I need to leave one overnight. That said, I'll use up to small adult mice to start babies without problem -- just don't leave a rodent with teeth with a baby for more than 15 minutes.

Other:
* I keep my babies at ~87 degrees, give or take a degree. I find hot babies are less likely to eat readily.
* Babies seem to like a touch more humidity than do adults and juveniles.
* My slower starters are almost always the more nervous babies.
* Switching to rats after a couple meals is honestly pretty easy. Sometimes I have a stubborn baby that needs scenting, but just thawing rats and mice together in a container is plenty.
* Braining or at least bloodying the nose of a dead hopper can help.
* The big thing is patience.

Things that have never worked for me:
Starting with f/t rats. Baby BPs really appear to prefer the smell of mice for tripping that "eat" program the first time.
Offering multiple meals a week to non-feeders. This just scares them, which makes things worse, and wastes rodents.

That's really all I can think of off the top of my head. Again, please do try to work out a source for live mice. Other things are doable, certainly, but live mice are best.

[Vipera Berus]

You could keep a couple of female mice in a small cage and use their shavings to scent the ft rat pups.

I said female mice, because the males REALLY stink, and you don't really want babies..You just need the shavings

Once they eat a few meals you can then just stop using the shavings and they should eat the ft rats no problem

I've found that the male mouse stink works better for getting my bp to eat rats, if the rat is scented with a female mouse I might as well throw the rat away. Male mouse scenting though and boom rat gets eaten.

[JodanOrNoDan]

You can thaw rat fuzzies with a mouse in the bag with them. This sometimes helps. Most of mine do start on FT however there always seems to be a holdout that needs live to kick the instincts into gear.

[ElliotNess]

REMINDER: Live is NOT available in my area so it is not an option. Thanks for the insight and believe me, were it a manageable request it would be something I'd be doing already as it does seem to be the standard, but as I said, live isn't a good fit for us where we are.

I find it hard to believe that there is not live feeders near you. So I took 11 seconds and found a breeder that not only has a ton of live but will also cull and freeze upon request.

https://charlotte.craigslist.org/pet/6185874391.html

I am in agreement with Deborah that its about the animals so if feeding live doesn't agree with you than maybe breeding isn't the best option, so this breeder is 15 miles away and seems reasonable to accommodate all..

[BPGator]

You can thaw rat fuzzies with a mouse in the bag with them. This sometimes helps. Most of mine do start on FT however there always seems to be a holdout that needs live to kick the instincts into gear.

Do you start on FT rats or mice?


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[JodanOrNoDan]

Do you start on FT rats or mice?


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Rats when I can get them at the right size, mice when I cannot, but Deborah is correct starting them on live mice is easier and has a much larger first time success rate. This year I am prepared and have more than enough FT rats of the correct size. I do this because I have a fear, maybe unfounded, that I am going to have issues switching them to FT rats. I like them to leave my care eating FT rat pups whenever possible.

[greco]

I use paper towels and a small handful of slightly damp sphagnum moss in my 6qt hatchling tubs. It seems to make them feel more secure, and start eating quicker. I remove the moss after several successful feedings, and they're usually fine after that. They start with live hoppers, and after they feed a few times without the moss, I try to switch them to frozen hoppers.

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[paulh]

Many hatchlings are too timid to leave the hiding box to find the water bowl, and dehydration can make them refuse food. Putting one in a small box with a quarter inch of water in the bottom every few days and leaving it alone for half an hour or so can prevent dehydration.

Temperatures either too high or too low will put any snake off food.

Good luck.

[hotelvoodoo]

UPDATE: Spent this past season using hopper mice on difficult first time feeders. We went with f/t to better ease the transition the rats in the long haul and it's worked like a a champ! We have been feeding the mice for a couple of weeks and then scenting rat pinks to switch them over and generally, within a feeding or two, they have switched right over. I guess at that small a size, the feeding response is strong enough that they don't have as much trouble switching prey.

Thanks for all of the advice guys! PROBLEM SOLVED.

[rufretic]

Glad to hear you got it figured out. My first clutch I learned the same lesson, get them feeding on mice and then they quickly switch to rats. I had no takers on rats and 100% success as soon as I switched to mice. Then it only took 3-5 feedings to get them all switched to rats. I’ll never do it any other way now.