When is it okay to demand a refund?

[redshepherd]

I'm not posting this on fauna's BOI yet or anything, because I don't really know how the buying/selling of stuff works very well, or when things are legal or not... So I have a few questions.

The situation is I paid for a cage to a guy (who will for now remain unnamed, but let me know if it's okay to name him LOL) on February 7th. It was $325. But a problem is that I'm an idiot and send the money "as a gift/friends" on paypal, because I thought he was trustworthy, since someone else recommended him to me. I'm now 100% sure this is already the point where I'm screwed lol, but have to ask for advice still.

Anyway, he first stated it would take 2 weeks to make and send the cage. In fact, it took him a month and a half (over 3 weeks his original deadline) because of this or that reason, his family is in the hospital, etc etc. he kept pushing the "deadline" forward multiple times.

The cage finally arrives to me on April 3rd, BROKEN... 1. because fedex screwed up and flipped it all around, but 2. mainly the "this side up/fragile" was not written clearly on the package. I didn't even see it at first. So I have to wrap it up, fedex picked it up on the 4th or 5th or something, and it's supposedly on its way back to him. I asked him for a refund on that day, but he said he will "make me a new cage ASAP".

Now he says he's going to wait for the broken cage to arrive for him instead, because he "doesn't want to spend more money on making me a new one ASAP". It's April 23rd and the broken cage hasn't arrived to him yet, and he isn't making me anything.

Now I'm asking him for a refund again, which he refuses to give me, and says he will make me a new cage. I can't escalate a claim because of my sending it as a gift... obviously... But I have no date on when he will receive it, he didn't give me info on the claim he supposedly filed with fedex, and I have no clue when he will actually finish it and send it again.

Assuming I wasn't an idiot and didn't send "as a gift", when is it okay to DEMAND a refund and escalate a claim? Can a seller actually refuse a refund for something like this?

and since I did send "as gift", I assume there's just nothing I can do, right? If there is, please let me know.

[zina10]

Through Paypal, no, you cannot do a thing. Un-fortunately.

I will absolutely, 100% REFUSE to do any business with anyone that asks to be paid that way. They can be the best breeder, company with the best feedback there is.
Asking to be paid that way screws the buyer AND paypal (out of the fees they should be getting)

A business that is professional simply absorbs those fees or factors them into the price.

But, you already knew this...but no, paypal won't do a claim.

Did you pay with a Credit or Debit card (through paypal). If so, its worth making a phone call to the issuing bank.

Aside from that, ask him one more time, nicely, and then tell him you will have to make this public. And then do it. BOI on Facebook, Fauna, here...wherever.

You will obviously not get satisfaction from him, and he is pulling you around by your nose hair because he knows of the paypal policy.

Well, public opinion can make a HUGE impact on sale, as he will figure out quickly. Is this someone that operates as a business? Or more a private person doing this as a little side income? Do
they do quite a bit of business online?

He has jerked you around long enough. At this point I would be tired of him dictating the entire thing. I also think that your chances of getting something satisfactory by simply waiting are less, then getting something satisfactory after public pressure.

As sad as that is.

Of course, it is all up to you...But I would have had enough of this weeks ago, and most certainly at this point.

[DLena]

Unfortunately there is nothing PayPal will do for you. Did you back the payment up with cc? If so, you may have recourse thru them.

Shipping it back: Thru whom did you send it and how did you send it? (Ex: FedEx ground return receipt) You should have a receipt with a tracking number. Go online and track the package. You will know where it's at and a delivery day estimate. You can't do anything until he has both your money and the returned item. Do you have concrete proof of the agreement to ship it back and have it replaced?

After you track the package, contact him thru text or email, not a phone call because you need proof, spelling out what you ordered, when it arrived, its condition (I hope you have pictures of the carton and damaged item), the agreement to make it right, the date and method of your return shipping including the tracking number, the anticipated arrival date, and based on that date, ask him for an anticipated date of completion/shipping to you with shipping method info and his plan to help avoid another damaged cage (for example, more padding and/or better labels. Also clarify who paid/will pay the several shipping fees.

This communication will provide a clear a concise description of events, issues and remedies.

If you don't get an undamaged cage in an agreed upon amount of time, you have recourse thru your cc, if you used one.

BUT contact the cc company NOW and give them a brief overview to find out what your time limitations are to file a claim. Usually it's only 90 days from purchase.

If the cc company cant help or you didn't use a cc, there is always small claims court. This has its own set of problems, especially if you are in different states.

Any chance the friend who connected you two could intervene?

I hope things work out well. What a disappointment.

[redshepherd]

Thanks for the advice zina, and I paid with paypal funds, not with a card. Ugh unfortunately, I was just trying to be nice and trusting by sending him money without the fees. He didn't request that of me. I will never do that again though, lesson learned, something is bound to go wrong.

Here's the chat, and he's currently finally accepting to send me a refund, after I threatened with the publicizing, which I didn't do before. I guess that is what always works. I really am sick of this, and I'm a patient person!



Dlena: thanks for the advice! Funnily, the friend who has recommended him to me has been intervening lightly, but it didn't help. I think he might be going through the same exact thing with the seller right now actually, but since he sent money as goods/services, it's much easier to get that refund (I think).

It was through fedex, so I'll contact them again and see how it turned out and ask for tracking... they came over to pick it up for free, since it was damaged by feded through shipment, at least partially. Though if this guy can finally send me a refund, I would care less about the broken cage.

[DLena]

Sorry for duplicate info, Zina is a much faster typist than I am. Again, good luck.
And based on how things go, you absolutely should take the time to post this on the BOI on FC. Make sure you provide all your documentation.

[redshepherd]

Thanks guys. Also, I forgot to answer, he's more like a side income and I don't think he has done much business online, since his good reviews I see are all from people picking up their cages/racks at shows, in person.

I would post this on fauna's BOI as a warning to others, but I also don't want to cause a ruckus or make enemies... Especially since I did send the money as "friends and family", it's my fault for being too nice aka an idiot in the first place, or else escalating a claim would be so much easier. I probably could have gotten my refund a couple months ago, if that.

eta:
Also omg, he sent me that "I'll look it back up" 30 minutes ago... Is this even true? How do I even believe this guy anymore lol.

[Lizardlicks]

I will say this as a person that does freelance commissions and uses paypal to get paid: DO NOT EVER USE THE GIFT OPTION WHEN PAYING FOR A PRODUCT/SERVICE. It not only protects you, the buyer, in case you want a refund, but it also protects the seller. Further, it's against Paypal's terms of service to get around the service fee, and a seller WILL get their account locked and all their funds frozen. Even if you think you're doing a favor by sending as gift: don't. It's really not a favor at all. And if they ask you to send it like that, back away slowly, that seller is NOT on the up-and-up.

What you CAN do, if you think the product is worth it and wish to show your appreciation as such, is tip the seller. Though I would advise to save tipping for after your product is received.

[redshepherd]

I will say this as a person that does freelance commissions and uses paypal to get paid: DO NOT EVER USE THE GIFT OPTION WHEN PAYING FOR A PRODUCT/SERVICE. It not only protects you, the buyer, in case you want a refund, but it also protects the seller. Further, it's against Paypal's terms of service to get around the service fee, and a seller WILL get their account locked and all their funds frozen. Even if you think you're doing a favor by sending as gift: don't. It's really not a favor at all. And if they ask you to send it like that, back away slowly, that seller is NOT on the up-and-up.

What you CAN do, if you think the product is worth it and wish to show your appreciation as such, is tip the seller. Though I would advise to save tipping for after your product is received.

Yeah, I'm not doing that again, as you know if you read my posts :\ lmfao

[Sauzo]

Unfortunately you sound kind of screwed. Your only real chance is to probably try and shame him into making you whole again by posting the deal on BOI of Faunaclassifieds or send him a letter saying if he doesn't give you a cage or a refund, you will take him to small claims court.

That is why you never send money through Paypal as 'gift/friend'. If you didn't, then you could have filed a claim with Paypal in 90 days. I had to do that once and since I've used Paypal a ton and never had a single issue, they processed my claim very fast and i was taken care of.

Also while it is your fault for sending cash 'gift/friends', it's not your fault for not receiving a cage. That is all his fault and screw if you make an enemy out of him, he stole your money. I'd be raising a stink on BOI all over. Heck, if you know what state he's in, i would contact the attorney General and tell him of the issues. If he didnt want all this negative feedback, he should have just made you the cage. Not your fault, you fulfilled your end of the bargain with the payment. Good luck.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Anyway, he first stated it would take 2 weeks to make and send the cage. In fact, it took him a month and a half (over 3 weeks his original deadline) because of this or that reason, his family is in the hospital, etc etc. he kept pushing the "deadline" forward multiple times.

While I understand that things happen (been there done that) when you run a business your customer need to be taken care of, problem or not and if you can’t immediate refund and apology for the situation should be offered.

Now he says he's going to wait for the broken cage to arrive for him instead, because he "doesn't want to spend more money on making me a new one ASAP". It's April 23rd and the broken cage hasn't arrived to him yet, and he isn't making me anything.

Poor excuse IMO, he knows and has proof that the cage is on the way and a new one should be out or being worked on.

Now I'm asking him for a refund again, which he refuses to give me

The fact that he is refusing to issue a refund his troubling to me, he fails to meet the deadline, the product once received was not satisfactory and had to be return anyone in this situation not only should refund the money that was sent but he should have actually been the one offering to do so without having you asking for it.

Between all that I would definitely ask for a refund, customer service is very important and I feel that he does not value his customers the way a business should.

Sadly since you paid with paypal funds there is little that can be done since it was sent as a gift, if it had been with your card it would be different.

I would make a last attempt and tell him that if you do not receive a refund you will simply post on the BOI, between the missed deadline, additional wait while the cage is confirmed to be on it's way back and refusing to offer a refund it will not look good for him.

It will come down to refunding your money or get his reputation tarnished, pretty easy choice for most people.