Vomiting from new enclosure setup?

[Polemarchus]

Good evening all,
So, for the past little bit, I have been lurking in the shadows with my new guy, Monty (yeah, I know…I let my wife name him). Unfortunately, my first post comes as an odd one. Bottom line up front: I woke up last night to a weird noise coming from his enclosure so I checked on him and saw that he had vomited on the wall of the enclosure (it's been 6 days since he fed). Sorry if it’s lengthy, but might be easier to get the info out).

Some info about Monty (I will give you the abridged version of his log):
Got him 3/10 and he has been staying in a 18QT tub type setup (paper towels as substrate) so I could keep track of every move he made in a controlled environment. Cold side about 78-80F and hot side 90-93F with UTH controlled by VE-300, humidity 50-60%.
Initial weight: 373g
Waited 5 days before feeding him his first feed and kept on his weekly feedings (5-7 day feeds of about 50-60g F/T rats) He has been eating like a champ and never missed a beat. He peed and pooped 4 days after the initial feeding.
First handling session was 48 hours after the second feeding. It was a memorable handling session as he was on my lap and 3 minutes in, I felt his pee running down my side and as I picked him up to see what it was, he found it necessary to take a huge poo on me. So, I’m not sure I would call that a ‘handling session’. The remaining handlings have been short ones, about 7-10 minutes each time, about 3 times a week and never within about 2 days of feeding.
He has left urine, urates, and poo fairly often and by 3/31, he had shed and got up to 480g after the pee/poo/shed.
He stays in his hide during the day and seems to cruise at night, as usual.
All of this has been a pretty textbook transition from him and it was going fairly well.

Recent events:
This past weekend, I was going up to my house in Maine for 4 days so I brought him with me so I could make sure he was with water and all that (and so the kids could see him). Put him in a snake sack and then put him in his empty tub and made the 2.5 hr drive back home. He had pooped and peed already that day and it had been 3 days since his last feeding. Got there, set up his cage like normal, and he was peachy for the trip and we made our way back yesterday morning. He was handled a couple times as he peed and pooped again over the 4 days while there.
I had his new cage set up and all I had to do was check the temps after I moved the VE-300 over to monitor the new cage (24x14x12 PVC cage from dragons4you.net). Two identical hides for cold and hot, right and left and cypress mulch for the substrate (the stuff meant for reptiles from Amazon), and a water bowl on the cold side. Cold on the left (80F) and hot on the right (91F). The hottest point on the hot side was the top of the hide itself at 93F (Radiant Heat Panel controlled with VE-300). Humidity was a bit high from the cypress mulch. I tried to dry it in an open tub over the last few days, but still retained moisture and humidity was 60-70%.
So, all the temps are stable and it’s time to introduce him to the enclosure. I put him in, he explored, smelled everything, and drank for about 30 seconds (I’ve also seem him drink many times in the past). He ended up resting in the middle of the cage near the sliding doors so I went to bed. A few hours later, I hear a wear whooshing sound from his enclosure and check it out, only to find the vomit on the back wall of the enclosure. I pull him out, wipe him down with a damn paper towel and then clean up the mess. The vomit had a little gelatinous mixture with a little bit of fur and some unknown bits. Temperatures didn’t seem off and humidity was 67%. He seemed as if nothing happened. Moving around in the temporary tub, tongue flicking, moving and looking normal. After I put him back in, he went into his cold hide and there wasn’t much I could do. About 5 hours later, I woke up to the same thing with him over his water dish, but this time it was just liquid (he’s pooped and peed so much since his last feeding that there’s not much in his belly. I took him out again, wiped him down and moved him back into his old tub setup that I know was working well before. He looked normal and did all his standard behaviors. He pretty much went right into his hide and I think he has been there all day. I have checked on him a few times throughout the day and he seems like normal from what I can tell. It’s been 16 hours since the episode. As he looks and acts healthy, I didn’t take him straight into the vet. The past weekend might have been too much for him and them compounded by swapping to a new tank that might have been too hot/humid? and just too much for him.
I will monitor him through the night and take him to the vet tomorrow if necessary. I intend on waiting 10-14 days before any feeding to build up his stomach bacteria and no handling for a while. Is there anything I should be on the lookout for? What things could have caused this? I’ve attached some recent pics so you can see what he looks like.
Thanks,
Jeff

[Crowfingers]

I'm not too familiar with illnesses, but it could be the stress of visiting, car ride, and new cage all combined. Or his last meal may have been just a touch bigger than he could handle. Did you assemble the new cage yourself or did it come pre-assembled? I ask because some of the sealants used to water-proof the edges have toxic fumes for a while if not allowed to cure long enough - same with newly build enclosures. Other than that some chemicals (lysol, bleach, paints...) can have toxic residues as well so if you cleaned his hides / water bowl in any kind of chemical that can also cause vomiting. I've also heard perfumed hand lotions are irritating, so if anyone was wearing any then held him it could have set something off.

hope some others have more to offer. Hope the little guy feels better soon.

[Polemarchus]

Thanks for the reply Crowfingers.
His last meal was 2 weaned rats at 30g each. I will be feeding him the weaned rats or a combination of weaned/small to try and stay within the 10-15%. I made the mistake of getting 25 weaned rats as I didn't think they would all be 30-35g each. But, he seems to enjoy them so I will feed them to him until they're gone. The cage was delivered to my house in Maine about a week ago (pre-assembled) and it's been sitting there since. The only adhesive would have been from the LED lights. I previously aired those out and made sure there was no smell after installing them in the cage earlier in the day. He has the same LED lights in his tub (his tub is green with some holes in it and i put a small, dim led light in there so i can peek in and see...I can change it to quite a few different colors) and they didn't bother him. Everything was cleaned with Chlorohexadine solution (about 3 tsp/25oz of water) and then dried. I used light soap and rinsed his hides and water bowl as well. As far as the lotion goes, I do wear cocoabutter lotion, but I believe I have washed before handling. I wouldn't quote me on that. I am scratching my head with this as I thought he would thoroughly enjoy the new enclosure and the temperature seems much easier to control. Although, I think I am going to swap to flexwatt for belly heat and use the RHP to control the ambient. It doesn't seem to want to heat inside the hide that well without increasing the temp of the entire enclosure higher than I want it to be. I have swapped back to his old water bowl as well. Not sure if there is anything wrong with his new/bigger one, but I know the old one works.

[zina10]

Never heard of a BP vomiting. Regurgitating, yes, not not projectile vomiting a liquidy mess.

If anything, I think the trip was to blame. You said he ate 3 days before the trip. At this point the food is well broken down, but NOT all the way digested yet.
Most likely he was very stressed and the temps during the trip were all over the place, at some point probably to cold.
It messed up his digestion, most likely slowed it down from that point forward. That would explain why he brought up matter that was almost digested, but not enough.

I don't think the vomiting was due to the new cage, everything sounds on the up and up. The trip started the stress. The varying temps during driving/handling, etc. The new cage just meant ongoing stress, but most likely better then during the trip.

For an animal such as that it is probably better to stay behind for such a short trip, perhaps with someone checking to make sure the thermostat and everything is working. Water shouldn't be a problem for that short of a duration.

All that said, for now I would keep him as LOW stress as possible. Fix the husbandry and leave him alone. Don't change it and then change it again. Choose a set up and just stick with it, as long as the husbandry is on par. NO handling, unless its an emergency. Of course keep your eye on him. To be safe I would wait more like 3 weeks before attempting to feed. If any signs of sickness develop , then its time for a vet visit. Hopefully he will just recover in time.

He is beautiful!

[Polemarchus]

Thanks Zina. I was quite surprised when looking into the cage to see the remnants of a projectile vomit. Needless to say, my search results were limited on those results. Good news is that he has made it a full 24 hours without another episode. He looks normal and tenses up, while coiled in his hide, when I open his tub. As he is currently in his tub, when should I try and move him back to the new cage? It's a better setup and less dependent upon ambient air temps in my room that fluctuate a bit. The UTH isn't the greatest with maintaining a high enough temp for the other parts of the cage.

[zina10]

Thanks Zina. I was quite surprised when looking into the cage to see the remnants of a projectile vomit. Needless to say, my search results were limited on those results. Good news is that he has made it a full 24 hours without another episode. He looks normal and tenses up, while coiled in his hide, when I open his tub. As he is currently in his tub, when should I try and move him back to the new cage? It's a better setup and less dependent upon ambient air temps in my room that fluctuate a bit. The UTH isn't the greatest with maintaining a high enough temp for the other parts of the cage.

It is up to you, of course, but honestly, after all the stress he had and you have already moved him back to the old enclosure, I would leave him for now.

He used to do reasonably well in there. He had a LOT of stress just lately, incl. the strange vomiting part. Most important now is that he heals up inside of him. Keeping stress low will help that. In a new enclosure, even if husbandry is perfect, they will cruise, inspect, check out and stress at first. Not what you need at this moment. Since he was well fed prior to all that, I would just leave him be for at least 7 to 10 days. If he still seems fine then, you could move him. Then once again leave him be for at least 5 days. If his cruising seems to turn into "hunger" cruising, you can try to feed then. I would leave at least 2 1/2 to 3 weeks after the vomiting before offering food.

Now, that is going by what makes sense to me. However, you are there, you know your snake. So you also have to follow your gut feeling.

Regurgitation really messes up their insides quite a bit and feeding to soon after can set off another regurgitation and it goes south from there. Yours had projectile vomiting. That may be less severe on the system then regurgitating a full sized rodent, but I honestly don't know.
In this case, I would just play it safe.

[Aste88]

Are you sure it's vomit? I mean did you witness what end did it came from? I've seen BPs pooping with farts and such with their mouth open and having contraction like they had to puke. Got me scared the first time.

Anyway just wait a bit longer before next feeding, offer a smaller prey and limit the stress to a minimum. It should be fine

[rufretic]

One other thing it could possibly be is he coughed up some mucus. I remember a long time back when I was a kid, I had a python that got an RI and he would cough shooting out mucus that looked similar to whats on the back of the cage in the first pic. It was thick and slimy. I wouldn't just assume that's what it is but with what he's been through, it seems possible he could of got sick. I would just keep a close eye on him and watch for other symptoms.

He is gorgeous! Good luck getting him back in tip top shape.

[Polemarchus]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I will go ahead and leave him in his tub for the time being to make sure he is well before moving forward at all. It's going to be really quiet for him these next couple weeks as I look for symptoms of any other issues. I didn't hear any wheezing or any signs before, but I will surely be on the look out for that now. As far as whether it is vomit or not, I am pretty sure since I looked in right after the awful sounds to see his head right at the goo and each time, he had liquid near his head from the blast. His vent and tail areas remained dry during the event. Thanks for everyone's help and I think he's gorgeous too