Gerald Super Dwarf Ultra Ivory Retic Progression

[Sauzo]

Retics are still reptiles and reptiles have evolved over millions and millions of years to sustain themselves during long periods of famine. Just because something is a retic doesn't mean it is open season to give it endless food. JM and I SD x dwarf retics for a reason. They are smaller. They are from island populations that have seasonal peaks in feeding. Seasonal migration of certain bird species to those islands, mating and birth cycles of other mammals, rainy season, and other events play a role in their feeding and adult size.

Though they are more active than the average boid, they are not made up the same way as some of the colubrids that actively forage.

Feeding SD retics in theory should mimic their natural food cycles. They should have some prey variety, some variation in prey size and frequency and you as the keeper should observe their individual needs.

It is well known and stated by more than a few experts that a male SD and dwarf retic can thrive and live a long healthy life by eating 1 large rat a week. Females may take a bit more, but if you are not breeding them, there is no need to stuff any snake unless you want it big.

I'm doing just fine feeding my snake 1 small rat every 7-10 days and have had zero issues.

JM,

Find what the snake wants/needs and go from there but I'd always stay conservative.

Gerald is a beauty!!

I agree Gio but your retic also doesn't push or turn into a terror when hungry. As I stated, every animal is going to be different. Also the statement of feeding should mimic nature is correct but that would only apply to a pure SD. Mainlands do eat more than a SD by nature to an extent. I mean there will be lean times and there will be plentiful times. There is no hard and fast etched in stone rule for feeding any animal. Every animal carries its weight different and has different needs.

Our retics are not pure SD so the you need to take that into acct. I mean Caesar is more mainland than yours which might affect his feeding wants and also how Caesar is much more laid back than Wallace. I mean if I went by the natural feeding schedule for a SD in nature, I would be taking Caesar to the vet every few weeks because his face would probably be hamburger from pushing and destroying when hungry. He already got those 2 little nicks I posted from when he was feed medium rats every 7-10 days. Heck he was hungry enough to strike at my shadow in his cage and struck the door once.

I was told by a few mainland guys that retics will and need to eat. They aren't a boa that goes a month or two between feedings or ball pythons who go months. They are retics who are more active and require more food. I take in their knowledge as well as those with SD knowledge as Caesar is a cross so what applies to a mainland wont apply to him 100% and what applies to a SD wont apply to him 100%. I try and find the happy median.

And yes, find what your individual snake needs and go with that. Take the rest of what is said by everyone as a grain of salt as the animal is in your care and you are really the only one who is reading it and knows what it needs. What I said at the first post about underfeeding and buying a male hognose if you want small etc was meant more as a joke but it seems it was taken serious lol.

[jmcrook]

All very valid points being brought up here! No two of any of our retics are the same percentage SD/Dwarf/Mainland. River is full mainland female and seems only a couple feet longer than Phyllis who is pure Super Dwarf. River seems to have a thicker build than Phyllis but that is expected given the background of the animals. Now Gerald is the newest addition to "club SD retic crosses" and has the highest percentage of both SD and mainland blood of all three of our male SD crosses. Same 50 % mainland blood as Stearns's Gene but all the rest of Gerald is super dwarf. In a few years all of these threads stand the potential to offer some really interesting insights as to how the various bloodlines affect the growth rates and overall size of these snakes. Love that we can all get together to discuss our very amazing and unique animals here and compare records. Very few other people in my life fully understand my lifelong obsession with snakes and I real enjoy getting to chat with y'all on here as much as we do!


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[Sauzo]

Retics are still reptiles and reptiles have evolved over millions and millions of years to sustain themselves during long periods of famine. Just because something is a retic doesn't mean it is open season to give it endless food. JM and I SD x dwarf retics for a reason. They are smaller. They are from island populations that have seasonal peaks in feeding. Seasonal migration of certain bird species to those islands, mating and birth cycles of other mammals, rainy season, and other events play a role in their feeding and adult size.

And this part is what I want to hit on. I didn't say it was open season on giving endless food. They need to be fed what they need to keep them healthy and 'full'.

The only pure SD out of any of us is JMs Phyllis. The rest of ours are a mix of mainland blood varying from 31% on Caesar to 20%? on Wallace. So with that said, it's going to rolling the dice to see what influence is mostly taken in. It looks like Wallace has taken more of the SD influence with him being quiet and not food driven and even refusing food in shed. Caesar seems to have taken more of the mainland influence and eats anything, anytime, anywhere and when hungry, he is more than happy to search around for dinner. Now does that mean me feeding him a large rat every 10 days is overfeeding him? Or does that mean you feeding Wallace a small rat every 7-10 days underfeeding him? It means neither as like I said, each snake is different and it will depend on the genes and the snake itself being the determining factor in how much food it needs.

And yes they are from an island where they mostly feed on the migratory birds yearly but again, this is for 100% SD. There is a reason there is no mainland ones there, they couldn't find enough food and died off. When they get hungry, they will go looking for food. I mean they are opportunistic and will eat stuff that comes by but when really hungry, they go searching. Some are more outgoing than others.

Correction, didn't know Gerald was 50% mainland.....so we got varying amounts from 50% mainland down to 20%? for Wallace.

And I totally forgot about Sterns Gene(sorry). He's like 50% dwarf and 50% mainland and the oldest yet the smallest out of all of ours lol.

[jmcrook]

And this part is what I want to hit on. I didn't say it was open season on giving endless food. They need to be fed what they need to keep them healthy and 'full'.

The only pure SD out of any of us is JMs Phyllis. The rest of ours are a mix of mainland blood varying from 31% on Caesar to 20%? on Wallace. So with that said, it's going to rolling the dice to see what influence is mostly taken in. It looks like Wallace has taken more of the SD influence with him being quiet and not food driven and even refusing food in shed. Caesar seems to have taken more of the mainland influence and eats anything, anytime, anywhere and when hungry, he is more than happy to search around for dinner. Now does that mean me feeding him a large rat every 10 days is overfeeding him? Or does that mean you feeding Wallace a small rat every 7-10 days underfeeding him? It means neither as like I said, each snake is different and it will depend on the genes and the snake itself being the determining factor in how much food it needs.

And yes they are from an island where they mostly feed on the migratory birds yearly but again, this is for 100% SD. There is a reason there is no mainland ones there, they couldn't find enough food and died off. When they get hungry, they will go looking for food. I mean they are opportunistic and will eat stuff that comes by but when really hungry, they go searching. Some are more outgoing than others.

Correction, didn't know Gerald was 50% mainland.....so we got varying amounts from 50% mainland down to 20%? for Wallace.

And I totally forgot about Sterns Gene(sorry). He's like 50% dwarf and 50% mainland and the oldest yet the smallest out of all of ours lol.

Just offered Gerald a small f/t rat and no dice. Just sat curled up behind his warm hide and then tucked his head in his coils. I think he just needs time to settle and maybe a live first food offering in his new home. Bob didn't specify live or f/t.

And if I remember correctly I think Gene is 25/25/50 SD/D/mainland. I'd have to dig through the threads to see


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[Gio]

I agree Gio but your retic also doesn't push or turn into a terror when hungry. As I stated, every animal is going to be different. Also the statement of feeding should mimic nature is correct but that would only apply to a pure SD. Mainlands do eat more than a SD by nature to an extent. I mean there will be lean times and there will be plentiful times. There is no hard and fast etched in stone rule for feeding any animal. Every animal carries its weight different and has different needs.

Our retics are not pure SD so the you need to take that into acct. I mean Caesar is more mainland than yours which might affect his feeding wants and also how Caesar is much more laid back than Wallace. I mean if I went by the natural feeding schedule for a SD in nature, I would be taking Caesar to the vet every few weeks because his face would probably be hamburger from pushing and destroying when hungry. He already got those 2 little nicks I posted from when he was feed medium rats every 7-10 days. Heck he was hungry enough to strike at my shadow in his cage and struck the door once.

I was told by a few mainland guys that retics will and need to eat. They aren't a boa that goes a month or two between feedings or ball pythons who go months. They are retics who are more active and require more food. I take in their knowledge as well as those with SD knowledge as Caesar is a cross so what applies to a mainland wont apply to him 100% and what applies to a SD wont apply to him 100%. I try and find the happy median.

And yes, find what your individual snake needs and go with that. Take the rest of what is said by everyone as a grain of salt as the animal is in your care and you are really the only one who is reading it and knows what it needs. What I said at the first post about underfeeding and buying a male hognose if you want small etc was meant more as a joke but it seems it was taken serious lol.

Your original post was taken as a "come on guys, you're starving your snakes feed them" comment. I guess I thought you were being serious when you made that comment. Typical of internet posting and misunderstanding. I should have known that as we discussed this before.

When there is mainland blood in them, it can be nullified a great deal due to the amount of SD and Dwarf especially in JM's case. However pushing the food may or may not turn it the other way and then you ruined the purpose of the SD or dwarf.

If feeding Caesar solves your pushing problems, by all means feed him, but there are MANY reasons snakes will push. My carpet does it often and it has zero relation to food. I too mentioned "individualism" as every snake will be different so we obviously agree on that.

I have a good friend that has kept loads of retics, mostly high end, mainland species and he has had most of his males stay in the 12'-14' and lean because of his feeding.

Just like with boas and other snakes, YouTube shows a ton of out of shape, fat retics that should have beed fed less over the years.

Caesar may grow fast initially and slow down a lot after two years. It is fairly common so you may end up leveling him out and large rats maybe his final weekly sized meal. Or you may have the snake that takes on full mainland attributes and you wind up with a giant. Hopefully not.

For people maybe looking to get into retics, especially the SDs or SD x dwarf combos, they should understand its not all about food. Just because they will eat, doesn't mean they need to eat. For folks looking at owning a smaller sized retic, a good, healthy approach to the diet is part of it. If you push it, the end result may not be what they want.

There are many factors, and I don't have all the answers or the experience to claim expert status. I'd venture there are few true experts.

I misunderstood your post and thought you were inferring I was underfeeding which isn't the case.

Its all good.

[Sauzo]

Your original post was taken as a "come on guys, you're starving your snakes feed them" comment. I guess I thought you were being serious when you made that comment. Typical of internet posting and misunderstanding. I should have known that as we discussed this before.

When there is mainland blood in them, it can be nullified a great deal due to the amount of SD and Dwarf especially in JM's case. However pushing the food may or may not turn it the other way and then you ruined the purpose of the SD or dwarf.

If feeding Caesar solves your pushing problems, by all means feed him, but there are MANY reasons snakes will push. My carpet does it often and it has zero relation to food. I too mentioned "individualism" as every snake will be different so we obviously agree on that.

I have a good friend that has kept loads of retics, mostly high end, mainland species and he has had most of his males stay in the 12'-14' and lean because of his feeding.

Just like with boas and other snakes, YouTube shows a ton of out of shape, fat retics that should have beed fed less over the years.

Caesar may grow fast initially and slow down a lot after two years. It is fairly common so you may end up leveling him out and large rats maybe his final weekly sized meal. Or you may have the snake that takes on full mainland attributes and you wind up with a giant. Hopefully not.

For people maybe looking to get into retics, especially the SDs or SD x dwarf combos, they should understand its not all about food. Just because they will eat, doesn't mean they need to eat. For folks looking at owning a smaller sized retic, a good, healthy approach to the diet is part of it. If you push it, the end result may not be what they want.

There are many factors, and I don't have all the answers or the experience to claim expert status. I'd venture there are few true experts.

I misunderstood your post and thought you were inferring I was underfeeding which isn't the case.

Its all good.

Yes it was a joke.

And as for growth. I mean this is a perfect example. Caesar and Wallace. Caesar was fed small rats every 4-5 days, then medium rats every week and now large rats every 10 days. You feed Wallace a small rat every 7-10 days. Now with this different of feeding, both our snakes are the same size, about 5'. And yours is actually more dwarf than mine while mine is more mainland than yours. While I think food plays a good chunk of the snakes overall size, I think a lot of it also plays into the genetics and whether said snake takes on the attributes of mainland or SD. I personally would say it's a 50/50 mix.

And yeah I always go back to this for info from Cody. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...nd-Information

And yes people looking for a smaller retic should just go 100% kalatoa. The introduction of dwarf and mainland blood is kind of a roll of the dice from what I've read as it depends how much of that blood the snakes 'uses' for lack of a better word in it's growth. As for the food, yes feed it as much as needed to keep it quiet and healthy. Not every snake is going to be the same and some react quite different to hunger as like I said, you see a huge difference in Caesar and Phyllis vs Riverrun and Wallace when it comes to wanting food.

And I'm jealous JM, I like that Ultra Ivory and you might be lucky and have one that isn't food driven like Caesar. Lol and heck, even after eating those rats last night, today I slide the doors open on Rosey and Vicky to stir their Eco Earth so it doesn't stay wet and packed down. I stand up and there is Caesar with his head popped out of his hide staring right at me lol. He is such a curious snake. Guess he felt the movement of the cages below and wanted to know what was up even with a full belly.

Oh and I forgot to add, Your snake is also a month younger than mine as Caesar was born 5-18 and Wallace was born June, yet they are the same size even with the age difference and feeding difference. Lol maybe you will end up with the bigger snake if Wallace uses more of his dwarf and mainland genes over Caesar haha. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants. Think all of us would be floored lol.

[Gio]

Yes it was a joke.

And as for growth. I mean this is a perfect example. Caesar and Wallace. Caesar was fed small rats every 4-5 days, then medium rats every week and now large rats every 10 days. You feed Wallace a small rat every 7-10 days. Now with this different of feeding, both our snakes are the same size, about 5'. And yours is actually more dwarf than mine while mine is more mainland than yours. While I think food plays a good chunk of the snakes overall size, I think a lot of it also plays into the genetics and whether said snake takes on the attributes of mainland or SD. I personally would say it's a 50/50 mix.

And yeah I always go back to this for info from Cody. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...nd-Information

And yes people looking for a smaller retic should just go 100% kalatoa. The introduction of dwarf and mainland blood is kind of a roll of the dice from what I've read as it depends how much of that blood the snakes 'uses' for lack of a better word in it's growth. As for the food, yes feed it as much as needed to keep it quiet and healthy. Not every snake is going to be the same and some react quite different to hunger as like I said, you see a huge difference in Caesar and Phyllis vs Riverrun and Wallace when it comes to wanting food.

And I'm jealous JM, I like that Ultra Ivory and you might be lucky and have one that isn't food driven like Caesar. Lol and heck, even after eating those rats last night, today I slide the doors open on Rosey and Vicky to stir their Eco Earth so it doesn't stay wet and packed down. I stand up and there is Caesar with his head popped out of his hide staring right at me lol. He is such a curious snake. Guess he felt the movement of the cages below and wanted to know what was up even with a full belly.

Oh and I forgot to add, Your snake is also a month younger than mine as Caesar was born 5-18 and Wallace was born June, yet they are the same size even with the age difference and feeding difference. Lol maybe you will end up with the bigger snake if Wallace uses more of his dwarf and mainland genes over Caesar haha. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants. Think all of us would be floored lol.

Wallace is actually only about 13 days younger, and I'm guessing about 4' 10". June 1st 2017 will be his one year mark. I also fed him larger prey sooner than you did. You had recently upsized and upsized again and increased frequency. Caesar looks larger, and a thicker but its difficult to tell from photos. Wallace still fits in out royal python's baby hide so he's by no means big.

When you have the mainland blood, I feel the feeding will play a role and could influence which direction the snake will go. Cody's videos talk about it and he stated if you need a smaller snake get a male and he doesn't discourage "maintenance mode" feeding.

Anyhow, I'm not trying to start an argument here.

The thread is about JM's new, and beautiful retic. Every keeper should feed how the way that is best for their snake, and if they are looking for a healthy, "maintenance style" feeding schedule they should use it if the snake responds well.

[Gio]

JM,

Pop up a few more pictures and get this thread back where it should be!

BTW I think the quarantine cage looks pretty well set up.

Have fun with that guy!

[jmcrook]

JM,

Pop up a few more pictures and get this thread back where it should be!

BTW I think the quarantine cage looks pretty well set up.

Have fun with that guy!

As requested here are more pics from earlier!

He's absolutely jaw dropping in person. These pics do no justice. And he's a quick mover so they aren't the best quality pictures.
I'm going to give him another week to settle in before I offer food again unless he starts getting really pushy. Might offer a live mouse if he turns down f/t again next week. I have a feeling Bob probably fed live prey, rather than thaw rats for hundreds of snakes.


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[Gio]

As requested here are more pics from earlier!

He's absolutely jaw dropping in person. These pics do no justice. And he's a quick mover so they aren't the best quality pictures.
I'm going to give him another week to settle in before I offer food again unless he starts getting really pushy. Might offer a live mouse if he turns down f/t again next week. I have a feeling Bob probably fed live prey, rather than thaw rats for hundreds of snakes.


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Now that is the mature body type of a well maintained retic. He looks lighting fast and lean.

Wallace has nowhere near that muscle tone yet.

You'll have to snap a few outdoor pictures when things warm up and he's settled in.

I'm sure the pattern/coloring is crazy when seen in person.