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  1. #1
    BPnet Veteran Seven-Thirty's Avatar
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    ASF randomly died

    So i acquired a 1.2 last night of ASF's and i woke up this morning to find one just dead. Did I do some thing wrong? I have gave them water, food, a chew toy. It doesn't look like it was an act of cannibalism so...


  2. #2
    BPnet Senior Member cchardwick's Avatar
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    Personally I find that my African Soft Fur rats don't like to eat blocks from above. But considering that one died overnight I would say it may have taken some sort of trauma. They should be able to go days without food and water. I also found that my rats die from regular pine bedding. It's very toxic to rodents, I would switch to shredded paper.
    Last edited by cchardwick; 02-15-2017 at 11:01 AM.

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    BPnet Veteran Seven-Thirty's Avatar
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    Re: ASF randomly died

    Quote Originally Posted by cchardwick View Post
    Personally I find that my African Soft Fur rats don't like to eat blocks from above. But considering that one died overnight I would say it may have taken some sort of trauma. They should be able to go days without food and water. I also found that my rats die from regular pine bedding. It's very toxic to rodents, I would switch to shredded paper.
    What kind of trauma would you say? The female was alive at around 1am last night and was in a state of rigormortis when i found her. I do use pine but it's kiln dried pine. I used it with my rats with extreme success. Would you recommed a food dish? What about the waterr bottle? Should i change that?

  5. #4
    BPnet Senior Member cchardwick's Avatar
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    For ASF waters I go with the thinnest nipples. Personally I'd stay away from all pine. I usually don't use food dishes and put the food directly on the bedding.

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    Seven-Thirty (02-15-2017)

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    BPnet Veteran Seven-Thirty's Avatar
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    I'll try out a thinner bottle and the food on the bedding, thanks!

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    Re: ASF randomly died

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty View Post
    So i acquired a 1.2 last night of ASF's and i woke up this morning to find one just dead. Did I do some thing wrong? I have gave them water, food, a chew toy. It doesn't look like it was an act of cannibalism so...

    Uploaded photo depicts a relatively healthy looking ASF to the left and sickly one to the right. Yes I get that the one to the right is dead, but still, it looks shabby. Does it? and did it before it got dead? There's only so much we can infer from a photo, but in my experience (I've produced 83 ASF's so far as of this morning) unhealthier specimens get dead one way or another - and no I'm not talking about feeding them off. There's a reason why they have Hugenormous litters = only the stronger ones are designed to survive.

    Judging by the size of the lab blocks, the cage in the photo = a mouse sized breeder cage. Go with a ten gallon tank sized surface area or larger for a trio. We use these for trios: http://www.reptilebasics.com/R10

    Also, you wrote that you, "acquired a 1.2 last night." So, you did not produce this trio yourself, and you have no idea of the background of this trio? or do you? I can tell you that they are not like Norway rats. No way. If I were to take 2 unrelated adult females and 1 adult male and toss them together overnight... the morning is gonna = 1 dead female, no doubt. I'm not saying it's like this all the time and for everybody, I'm just saying that I learned my lesson the hard way. I don't mix adults anymore, not even in a feeder grow-out tank. I only mix ASF's that are ~1month old, not any older than that. I'm not saying that's the only way it can be done, but I certainly do believe it is the safest, and I always like to err on the side of caution to play it safe.

    Lastly, who got dead? a female? do you have a pair? if so you can still get on with breeding.

    Quote Originally Posted by cchardwick View Post
    Personally I find that my African Soft Fur rats don't like to eat blocks from above. ... They should be able to go days without food and water. I also found that my rats die from regular pine bedding. It's very toxic to rodents, I would switch to shredded paper.
    Guys (and gals) try this: put blocks on one side and a high protein dog food on the other and watch which one gets gobbled up. ASF's are much more carnivorous than Norways. Just look at their daggers for teeth LOL - and when (not if but WHEN) you get bitten you will know their dental equipment is way sharper than Norways = carnivorous.

    Days without water? Really? You're pushing your luck. They have been known to kill each other just to drink the blood. See the archives on this forum, particularly threads where Mikey Cavanaugh has chimed in. He is without a doubt the most learned & knowledgeable ASF breeder to have posted on this forum, or on any other forum for that matter. I wish he were still with us.

    Finally, I can't comment on pine shavings, but pine pellets are the bee's knees. We use this stuff: http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...-bedding-40-lb
    dirt cheap and with ASF's being nearly odor-free and consolidating their poop & piss to corners of the enclosures (they CAN control their bowels/piss, unlike Norways & mice which are disgusting filthy animals) a 1" layer is good for 1month on trios.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty View Post
    ... I used it with my rats with extreme success. ...
    Are you treating Praomys natalensis aka Mastomys natalensis the same as Rattus norvegicus ? Would you treat Python regius as you would Boa constrictor ? asking for trouble. They are very, VERY different.

    Quote Originally Posted by cchardwick View Post
    ... put the food directly on the bedding.
    You don't have to put it directly on the bedding, but it's gonna wind up (and under) there anyway. These guys remind me of chipmunks stashing away grub for Winter.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Any ASF breeders going to the Hamburg, PA, show on the 25th of this month? if so pls PM me let's swap some trios pls i wanna add some new blood to my line.

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    Seven-Thirty (02-15-2017)

  10. #7
    BPnet Veteran Seven-Thirty's Avatar
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    Re: ASF randomly died

    Quote Originally Posted by Praomys View Post
    Uploaded photo depicts a relatively healthy looking ASF to the left and sickly one to the right. Yes I get that the one to the right is dead, but still, it looks shabby. Does it? and did it before it got dead? There's only so much we can infer from a photo, but in my experience (I've produced 83 ASF's so far as of this morning) unhealthier specimens get dead one way or another - and no I'm not talking about feeding them off. There's a reason why they have Hugenormous litters = only the stronger ones are designed to survive.

    Judging by the size of the lab blocks, the cage in the photo = a mouse sized breeder cage. Go with a ten gallon tank sized surface area or larger for a trio. We use these for trios: http://www.reptilebasics.com/R10

    Also, you wrote that you, "acquired a 1.2 last night." So, you did not produce this trio yourself, and you have no idea of the background of this trio? or do you? I can tell you that they are not like Norway rats. No way. If I were to take 2 unrelated adult females and 1 adult male and toss them together overnight... the morning is gonna = 1 dead female, no doubt. I'm not saying it's like this all the time and for everybody, I'm just saying that I learned my lesson the hard way. I don't mix adults anymore, not even in a feeder grow-out tank. I only mix ASF's that are ~1month old, not any older than that. I'm not saying that's the only way it can be done, but I certainly do believe it is the safest, and I always like to err on the side of caution to play it safe.

    Lastly, who got dead? a female? do you have a pair? if so you can still get on with breeding.



    Guys (and gals) try this: put blocks on one side and a high protein dog food on the other and watch which one gets gobbled up. ASF's are much more carnivorous than Norways. Just look at their daggers for teeth LOL - and when (not if but WHEN) you get bitten you will know their dental equipment is way sharper than Norways = carnivorous.

    Days without water? Really? You're pushing your luck. They have been known to kill each other just to drink the blood. See the archives on this forum, particularly threads where Mikey Cavanaugh has chimed in. He is without a doubt the most learned & knowledgeable ASF breeder to have posted on this forum, or on any other forum for that matter. I wish he were still with us.

    Finally, I can't comment on pine shavings, but pine pellets are the bee's knees. We use this stuff: http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...-bedding-40-lb
    dirt cheap and with ASF's being nearly odor-free and consolidating their poop & piss to corners of the enclosures (they CAN control their bowels/piss, unlike Norways & mice which are disgusting filthy animals) a 1" layer is good for 1month on trios.



    Are you treating Praomys natalensis aka Mastomys natalensis the same as Rattus norvegicus ? Would you treat Python regius as you would Boa constrictor ? asking for trouble. They are very, VERY different.
    That's actually the exact cage I'm using XD. I did have the dead female before it died. It was last alive around 1am EST and was probably dead around before 7am which is when I wake up. I did not breed them myself but acquired them from the local reptile specialty shop. I recently learned that they do not breed them themselves actually but tend to get shipments every once and a while and "maintain" them till they are sold or cull and freeze them. They're all from the same colony originally I assume. And yeah, I changed my husbandry a little. I gave them more things to play with, made a little feed bowl and am now supplementing with superworms as recommended by the reptile shop. I also added a 0.3 to the cage this afternoon to no ill effect either. So right now I have a 1.4 of i guess subadult asf rats and they seem to be doing just fine. I've been monitoring them on and off for the bast 6-7 hoursish and no aggression that I have noticed. I plan on separating 0.2 of the females when one drops a litter and holding back one of those males.

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    Re: ASF randomly died

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty View Post
    That's actually the exact cage I'm using... They're all from the same colony originally I assume. ... made a little feed bowl ... added a 0.3 to the cage this afternoon to no ill effect either. So right now I have a 1.4 ... I plan on separating 0.2 of the females when one drops a litter and holding back one of those males.
    RBI mouse cage 12" x 7.5" x 5.25" ?
    or
    RBI rat cage 18.25" x 12" x 6.25" ?
    I'm looking at your cage in relation to the lab blocks, the water bottle, and to a lesser extent the ASF's (cause I don't know if they are full-grown or not) --- sure seems a lot smaller than the cages we got from RBI.

    And I see you got the RBI water bottles too. Have you experienced your ASFs turning them? We are using different bottles, our ASFs turn our bottles to the point that if the bottle is not ~3/4s full then the water will not dispense.
    We are using these: http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...er-bottle-8-oz
    We have to add a few inches of duct tape on them to hold them in place. Bit of a hassle when they need to be refilled, which is every few days.

    Even if you assume that they're all originally from the same colony (even siblings) they can still kill each other if they were not raised together from a young age.

    You made a little feed bowl? How's that working out for ya? Before you refill it look around the cage, under the bedding too, for stashed food.

    A 1.4 in a 18.25" x 12" x 6.25" is crowded. Look back over the archives on this forum, a 1.2 is generally agreed upon as the best number. Can you get another male and set up another cage with 1.2 in each cage?

    You will be "separating 0.2 of the females when one drops a litter"... but you are going to keep >1 in a cage at all times right? Ocassionally we isolate an ASF to its own enclosure. It won't eat. I don't know how long it would refrain from eating cause it's soon feed off, but even a day or 2 of a hunger strike is too much when considering how much slower ASFs grow vs Norwegians.

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  13. #9
    Registered User predatorkeeper87's Avatar
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    Re: ASF randomly died

    Quote Originally Posted by Praomys View Post
    Uploaded photo depicts a relatively healthy looking ASF to the left and sickly one to the right. Yes I get that the one to the right is dead, but still, it looks shabby. Does it? and did it before it got dead? There's only so much we can infer from a photo, but in my experience (I've produced 83 ASF's so far as of this morning) unhealthier specimens get dead one way or another - and no I'm not talking about feeding them off. There's a reason why they have Hugenormous litters = only the stronger ones are designed to survive.

    Judging by the size of the lab blocks, the cage in the photo = a mouse sized breeder cage. Go with a ten gallon tank sized surface area or larger for a trio. We use these for trios: http://www.reptilebasics.com/R10

    Also, you wrote that you, "acquired a 1.2 last night." So, you did not produce this trio yourself, and you have no idea of the background of this trio? or do you? I can tell you that they are not like Norway rats. No way. If I were to take 2 unrelated adult females and 1 adult male and toss them together overnight... the morning is gonna = 1 dead female, no doubt. I'm not saying it's like this all the time and for everybody, I'm just saying that I learned my lesson the hard way. I don't mix adults anymore, not even in a feeder grow-out tank. I only mix ASF's that are ~1month old, not any older than that. I'm not saying that's the only way it can be done, but I certainly do believe it is the safest, and I always like to err on the side of caution to play it safe.

    Lastly, who got dead? a female? do you have a pair? if so you can still get on with breeding.



    Guys (and gals) try this: put blocks on one side and a high protein dog food on the other and watch which one gets gobbled up. ASF's are much more carnivorous than Norways. Just look at their daggers for teeth LOL - and when (not if but WHEN) you get bitten you will know their dental equipment is way sharper than Norways = carnivorous.

    Days without water? Really? You're pushing your luck. They have been known to kill each other just to drink the blood. See the archives on this forum, particularly threads where Mikey Cavanaugh has chimed in. He is without a doubt the most learned & knowledgeable ASF breeder to have posted on this forum, or on any other forum for that matter. I wish he were still with us.

    Finally, I can't comment on pine shavings, but pine pellets are the bee's knees. We use this stuff: http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...-bedding-40-lb
    dirt cheap and with ASF's being nearly odor-free and consolidating their poop & piss to corners of the enclosures (they CAN control their bowels/piss, unlike Norways & mice which are disgusting filthy animals) a 1" layer is good for 1month on trios.



    Are you treating Praomys natalensis aka Mastomys natalensis the same as Rattus norvegicus ? Would you treat Python regius as you would Boa constrictor ? asking for trouble. They are very, VERY different.



    You don't have to put it directly on the bedding, but it's gonna wind up (and under) there anyway. These guys remind me of chipmunks stashing away grub for Winter.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Any ASF breeders going to the Hamburg, PA, show on the 25th of this month? if so pls PM me let's swap some trios pls i wanna add some new blood to my line.
    not an ASF breeder yet but I'll buy ASF off you if you want to sell haha. I'll be at that show.

  14. #10
    BPnet Veteran Seven-Thirty's Avatar
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    Re: ASF randomly died

    Quote Originally Posted by Praomys View Post
    RBI mouse cage 12" x 7.5" x 5.25" ?
    or
    RBI rat cage 18.25" x 12" x 6.25" ?
    I'm looking at your cage in relation to the lab blocks, the water bottle, and to a lesser extent the ASF's (cause I don't know if they are full-grown or not) --- sure seems a lot smaller than the cages we got from RBI.

    And I see you got the RBI water bottles too. Have you experienced your ASFs turning them? We are using different bottles, our ASFs turn our bottles to the point that if the bottle is not ~3/4s full then the water will not dispense.
    We are using these: http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...er-bottle-8-oz
    We have to add a few inches of duct tape on them to hold them in place. Bit of a hassle when they need to be refilled, which is every few days.

    Even if you assume that they're all originally from the same colony (even siblings) they can still kill each other if they were not raised together from a young age.

    You made a little feed bowl? How's that working out for ya? Before you refill it look around the cage, under the bedding too, for stashed food.

    A 1.4 in a 18.25" x 12" x 6.25" is crowded. Look back over the archives on this forum, a 1.2 is generally agreed upon as the best number. Can you get another male and set up another cage with 1.2 in each cage?

    You will be "separating 0.2 of the females when one drops a litter"... but you are going to keep >1 in a cage at all times right? Ocassionally we isolate an ASF to its own enclosure. It won't eat. I don't know how long it would refrain from eating cause it's soon feed off, but even a day or 2 of a hunger strike is too much when considering how much slower ASFs grow vs Norwegians.
    RBI Rat Cage. So far I haven't noticed the asfs doing anything to the water bottle other than just merely drinking it. The feed bowl is working well, Im finding that they do just stash the food around so I just took the bowl out altogether. As for the over crowding problem, it's merely temporary until one drops a litter then i'm transferring 0.2 of the original 1.4 and some pups and keeping back a male from one of those pups. I have two RBI rat cages so yeah. I do plan on keeping at least 2 ASFs per cage at all times though.

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