Nasty RI - no herp vets I trust - PLS READ!

[Mindibun]

*** I know the typical answer is go to a vet. But there are issues with that in this case - please read the details before judging! ***

A friend of mine has this retic that she's had for 15 years - took great care of it. But, she recently got a new snake that had mites and a horrible RI. For some UNEXPLAINABLE reason, this normally intelligent friend did NOT quarantine the new snake and now her big girl has a nasty RI and mouth rot. She is incapable of treating the snake herself, so my boyfriend and I are caring for her until she's well again.

We cannot take her to a vet because there is not a single knowledgeable herp vet that we have found within hours of driving in any direction. All the vets around here are idiots, one of them killed one of my animals, the others have tried to con me, tell me the animals were dangerous and I shouldn't own them, etc. I had ONE vet I trusted, but he moved away. Now, I've been working with an avian vet who is bloody brilliant (with birds) to treat my own snakes. So, I have access to medications, but am usually on my own to figure proper dosing. *Also note that the OWNER of the snake has the required permit, but I do not, and as *I* would be the one taking it to the vet, I am afraid this would raise all kinds of issues that I'd like to avoid.

Now, questions:

I am using this website: http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

1.) It seems Baytril is going to be the best course of action here. I know many tend to stay away from it because it is so harsh, but this is an advanced infection coupled with mouth rot. Does anyone disagree or have any objections I should be aware of?

2.) Can someone check my math on this? I'm terrible at math.

Baytril Dosage:
Lizards and snakes:
Routine: 5 mg/kg IM/PO q 24h
Resistant: 10 mg/kg IM/PO q 24h


She's 55 pounds, so 55 x 0.45 = 25kg
5 mg/kg --> 25kg x 5mg = 125mg

But now, how do I go from mg to cc's? Everything I've looked up online has confused the bajeesus out of me...



We are keeping her quarantined on the other end of the house, she's in a hot, dry environment with a basking spot of 90*. She's been sitting with her head elevated and propped directly under the light. We are treating her mouth rot every day by simply rinsing the mouth with Chlorhex solution. We're hoping that adding the Baytril will clear this up.

Any other advice for me?

[CALM Pythons]

1cc is 1 Ml.. same thing.
I cant give advice on treating though because RI's are caused by different things and if it isnt Bacterial your only calming the symptoms dor the moment and then it comes back worse. In the mean time you'll use a antibiotic that they can build up a tolerance for.. Cultures are needed now days because of the very differnt causes of RI's.
I would drive even if it meant leaving the snake..tell the owner they work out payment plans most of the time. The heck with risking that gorgeous Tic.

[Reinz]

You really do need a culture for the RI. For mouth rot, I don't know if Baytril is the gold standard or one of many antibiotics for mouth rot. If Baytril is not a for sure cure, get a culture.

But to answer your question look at the Baytril labeling to see how many mg per ml there are. And figure out from there how many ml's are needed since you know that you need 125 mg. Clear as mud, right?

And an Amen to what Sully told you about cc and ml being the same.

[Mindibun]

1cc is 1 Ml.. same thing.
I cant give advice on treating though because RI's are caused by different things and if it isnt Bacterial your only calming the symptoms dor the moment and then it comes back worse. In the mean time you'll use a antibiotic that they can build up a tolerance for.. Cultures are needed now days because of the very differnt causes of RI's.
I would drive even if it meant leaving the snake..tell the owner they work out payment plans most of the time. The heck with risking that gorgeous Tic.

I know that 1ml = 1cc, so that's covered.

The issue is, as I stated, the snake is not mine. *I* do not have a permit for it, so *I* cannot take it to a vet. I'd be afraid they'd call FWC (I don't remember what they're called nowadays. When my dad worked for them, they were FWC - Florida Wildlife Commission - so that's what they'll forever be to me). The OWNER of the snake is quite an odd duck, and while she genuinely cares for her animals and she HAS money - so money is not the issue here ... she is WORSE than I am as far as not trusting vets. She is very old-school and believes in doing everything at home. I am trying to save it by doing what I can, utilizing my veterinary contact to obtain medications the snake might otherwise NOT have gotten, and doing what I know after 15 years dealing with snakes. Granted, that is very little in the grand scheme of things. But, my hands are very tied here. I have to abide by the owner's wishes, the state's permitting laws (preventing me from showing up at a vet with it), and my own conscience, saying I need to try what I can to save the animal.

Also, please know, that when I say there are no vets I trust within HOURS of driving distance, I really do mean that. Even IF I could find a vet online that SEEMED knowledgeable, I wouldn't KNOW if they were until I'd driven about 3 hours out of my way (because that's how far I've driven in the past trying to find good veterinary care for my animals). I may get there and find they're just as terrible as those closer to me. I live in Florida, so the laws are strict regarding large snakes, and the state is large, so the driving time is significant.

Trust me, I KNOW it sounds like I'm coming up with excuses to avoid a vet. But, having owned snakes for so long, and having been to COUNTLESS vets all over the state, I am just incredibly wary. And as bad as I am, the owner is worse. So, again, I have to abide by her wishes. I am just trying to do what I can for the snake - what little is in my power to do. Any help is appreciated, any judgement is - TRUST ME - completely understood.

*** If anyone KNOWS a GOOD herp vet in South Florida, please let me know! Maybe I can talk her into it... ***

[Mindibun]

You really do need a culture for the RI. For mouth rot, I don't know if Baytril is the gold standard or one of many antibiotics for mouth rot. If Baytril is not a for sure cure, get a culture.

But to answer your question look at the Baytril labeling to see how many mg per ml there are. And figure out from there how many ml's are needed since you know that you need 125 mg. Clear as mud, right?

And an Amen to what Sully told you about cc and ml being the same.

This was actually very helpful, so THANK YOU. Everything you said, I had already thought about - "look at the Baytril labeling to see how many mg per ml there are, and figure out from there how many ml's are needed" for instance, but for some reason, seeing it written out the way you wrote it made it clear. I guess I just had too many numbers floating around up there earlier.

Regarding cultures, I'm sure I could get my avian vet friend to process a culture if I knew what to give - blood sample? Tissue sample? Saliva? But, I don't know if his lab also deals with reptiles, so it may yield no results. I will look into this.

And, as I said, I completely understand the judgements here, guys - I do. I'd be thinking the same thing if I were in your shoes. But, I'm not. I'm stuck with a sick snake, a stubborn owner, and no permit for the animal ... so I'm rather on my own here. I'm just trying to help. (I am also aware that "no good deed goes unpunished" ...)

[Reinz]

This was actually very helpful, so THANK YOU. Everything you said, I had already thought about - "look at the Baytril labeling to see how many mg per ml there are, and figure out from there how many ml's are needed" for instance, but for some reason, seeing it written out the way you wrote it made it clear. I guess I just had too many numbers floating around up there earlier.

Regarding cultures, I'm sure I could get my avian vet friend to process a culture if I knew what to give - blood sample? Tissue sample? Saliva? But, I don't know if his lab also deals with reptiles, so it may yield no results. I will look into this.

And, as I said, I completely understand the judgements here, guys - I do. I'd be thinking the same thing if I were in your shoes. But, I'm not. I'm stuck with a sick snake, a stubborn owner, and no permit for the animal ... so I'm rather on my own here. I'm just trying to help. (I am also aware that "no good deed goes unpunished" ...)

Oh no judgement at all. We are only talking about cultures to save, time, trouble, and for the health of the snake. Otherwise it COULD be a crapshoot.

The mucus from the mouth should work for both for the culture on identifying the bug(s).

[dr del]

Just my tuppence as it has already been said;

A culture to find which treatment works best will save not only the snake but money in the long term.

I hope you can find a vet you can persuade your friend is trustworthy - many forums will carry recommendations from users not just ours. Find then best you can then ask her how she feels about it.

Since R.I's can be fungal, bacterial and viral they make the decision to check a no-brainer for me.

[Sauzo]

As mentioned, you need to get a culture done to find the exact reason for the RI and what the best medicine is. Playing vet yourself is just a recipe for disaster. If your friend has the permits required in your state to won the snake, then she needs to be with you when you take it to the vet. I'm not sure the reasoning behind her not being able to take the snake to the vet but whatever. You don't need a strict reptile vet as most exotic vets have training in the basics for reptiles. My vet isn't a 'pure' reptile only vet but she is an exotic vet who has dealt with all sorts of reptiles, amphibians and birds. My advice is call around to all the exotic vets and see if they have experience dealing with large constrictors like boas and retics. A culture is a culture and medicine prescriptions are based on weight so any exotic vet can deal with that assuming they have the basic knowhow.

And also you want to bump up the humidity. You don't want a dry environment for them if they got RI. Dry environments for a tropical snake will dry their lung out and cause it to crack which allows bacteria in. You want to keep it hot and humid.

Bottom line is the snake has bad RI and mouth rot. It NEEDS a vet.

[chip07]

Agree on the culture. If this is a big snake baytril is a bad idea. The amount needed for big snakes in injections can cause tissue/skin necrosis and muscle damage. Gaping holes when it's a really bad reaction. I used baytril on my smaller 9ft retic for about 3 shots but I noticed the burning it was doing and the lumps it was forming and stopped treatment. Went to a different vet and got a different antibiotic that worked way better no damage couldn't even find the injection sites the day after. I would never risk using baytril on my big guys. From what my vet told me it's the crazy amount needed for the giant snakes that causes the bad reaction.

My girl is only 22lbs and the amount of baytril needed to treat her smaller size was causing tissue damage.

[zina10]

In order to get a good culture for a RI, the vet usually does a "lung wash". You need to see what is deep within.

From the mucous you will probably see what is tumbling around in the mouth rot.

This is a very tricky situation and you have my sympathy. Also, kudos for doing all you can to try to save this snake.

So, my frustration is not aimed at you at all, but rather the actual owner. It doesn't matter at all whether she is stubborn, old fashioned or whatever. This isn't about her. This is about an animal she owns, and she ought to give it the best chance at recovery. You would think after owning it for so long, she would worry more about the snake then herself.

As is, the chances of a vet helping this snake are far higher then a vet actually doing harm or causing its death. Especially in Florida there are a lot of exotics vets. They don't need to specialize in snakes. They just have to have the know how and there have to be some like that around !!! Perhaps if you let us know the location, someone here knows a good vet not to far away.
Like Chip said, giving Baytril to such a large snake can do more harm. Especially if you don't even know if it will be effective on whichever germs are present.

I would do all I could to help a friend by helping their animal. But I would insist that we do what is needed. I wouldn't allow my hands to be tied behind my back and being the one that has to watch an animal suffer needlessly. Not doing what needs to be done. Especially since you said money isn't a issue at all. If its all about "stubbornness", then I would tell the friend to take the snake back. Sorry, but I wouldn't want to be the one that watches it decline, knowing all the while it could be helped, but won't be.

I had to watch my Blood Python slowly decline and that was WITH constant vet care of a qualified vet. I could never watch this going on while not doing all there could be done.

Again, my criticism is NOT towards you at all!! You are doing what you can, with what you were given. But knowing that this "home remedy" could do more harm then help, I'm not sure I would want to proceed with that.