First Bath

[redshepherd]

Well looks like I had to take the moss out of her hide. She wont go back in with it in there. I guess it takes up too much room.

Don't put a ton- you can even just line one side of the hide with it. I just flatten a little against one side and spray it.

[FeathersRuff]

I didn't put a whole lot in, just a tiny handful lined against the back.

Thats ok though, once she gets back in her hide ill put some in.

[PitOnTheProwl]

Is there any scientific evidence to support this idea of washing the natural oils out of a snake's skin ?

Sounds rather like one of those made-up stories ...
Like the one where we all swallow spiders in the night ...

A snake will soak itself as needed if provided a bowl large enough.
They also produce their own natural oils to aid in shedding their skin.
As I highly doubt they skin is impermeable I would imagine that the oils can leach through just as with humans or any other animal.
So you can dry your own skin out by washing your hands too much, What makes you think you couldn't soak a snake too much?
There are people that have snake that continually have bad sheds and they also continue to bathe their animals.

Personally I think you believe you need too believe in both sides.

[Reinz]

A snake will soak itself as needed if provided a bowl large enough.
They also produce their own natural oils to aid in shedding their skin.
As I highly doubt they skin is impermeable I would imagine that the oils can leach through just as with humans or any other animal.
So you can dry your own skin out by washing your hands too much, What makes you think you couldn't soak a snake too much?
There are people that have snake that continually have bad sheds and they also continue to bathe their animals.

Personally I think you believe you need too believe in both sides.

Sorry, I have to respond to few things here. I'm not being argumentative, just Devil's advocate and relay my experience and address the questions you offered.

I would not know if snake skin is semipermeable or not, good question.

Human skin dries out from the use of detergents, not water. Snakes don't use soap. Also I used to be a competitive waterskier spending 12-18 hrs a day training in and on the water many times. My skin didn't get dry. Also humans don't shed their skin in one piece like snakes. Our skin is constantly dying off and being replenished, so not that is not a good comparison.

For example, here is Punch. He was soaking day one of going into the blue and never came out of his bowl until shedding last night.



My BP adult spends 30-40% of her life soaking; my Boas, 50-60%, my Carpets 60-80%. And I will repeat, lowest humidity 50%, and highest in the low 70's. Bowls are all on the cool side in the 70's, so the snakes are not too hot. Hot spots run 88-90 degrees, so husbandry is fine.

I'm just giving my experience, so that is my reality. I don't think bathing your snake is a good idea. But this "bathing your snake washes away oils" is b.s. I just believe in giving them the opportunity to soak if THEY decide to.

Yes, my 7 snakes are not an adequate number for a scientific study. But when you look at how much of their life is spent soaking and they ALL end up with perfect one piece sheds tells me there is definitely not any washing away oils.

This why I don't think a snake can soak too much. But I believe the owner soaking their snake can do it too much by way of stress on the snake, not the hydration itself.


Butch soaking while in the blue.

[PitOnTheProwl]

I just believe in giving them the opportunity to soak if THEY decide to.

Yes, my 7 snakes are not an adequate number for a scientific study. But when you look at how much of their life is spent soaking and they ALL end up with perfect one piece sheds tells me there is definitely not any washing away oils.

This why I don't think a snake can soak too much. But I believe the owner soaking their snake can do it too much by way of stress on the snake, not the hydration itself.

Picking just a couple points of your post, the animals soak on their own choice.
Still doesn't change the fact that there are animals with continual shed problems that owners continue to soak and continue to have problems.
This makes me wonder if maybe those animals are not producing the needed oils due to some other continual problems with husbandry?
I was one that did bathe my first ball not knowing any different. Dry broken sheds tell me there was a problem doing this.
I posted a video of my yellow belly shedding while I was weighing him. A fresh shed skin has a really weird oil/slime feel to it.
My observations are my own.

[SnakeCharm]

Solely on ball pythons, here's a quote from the Institute of Physics and the Bioinspiration Biomimetrics journal about oil secretion:

"...the royal python and a lizard called a sandfish skink – live in very dry environments and don’t secrete oils or other liquids onto their skin" (Greiger 2015)

I am no herpetologist--but as an evolutionary biologist, I find that citing and using empirical evidence holds far more value than stating anecdotal, just-so-stories. Although I did not look far into the nitty-gritty of ecdysis, perhaps this article can shed some light on how ball pythons (and certain lizards) locomote, and how the supposed snake oil does not apply to certain reptiles, especially those originating from drier environments, i.e. Africa. In fact, the "oily", smooth feeling we feel from their scales has a lot more to do with its structure and orientation. Now, perhaps this might not apply to boas and other types of pythons, but as I disclosed earlier on, I'm merely talking about ball pythons.

Here's a glimpse of the research if anyone is interested: http://www.iop.org/news/15/jul/page_65881.html

[PitOnTheProwl]

Didn't have anything else to do at the moment.
Running 7 times normal. Shed took a little over 20 minutes

[Reinz]

Picking just a couple points of your post, the animals soak on their own choice.
Still doesn't change the fact that there are animals with continual shed problems that owners continue to soak and continue to have problems.
This makes me wonder if maybe those animals are not producing the needed oils due to some other continual problems with husbandry?
I was one that did bathe my first ball not knowing any different. Dry broken sheds tell me there was a problem doing this.
I posted a video of my yellow belly shedding while I was weighing him. A fresh shed skin has a really weird oil/slime feel to it.
My observations are my own.

Sure there may be problems with the owners soaking. Maybe because it's on the owner's timing. By allowing the snake to choose, it's on the snake's timing, for it knows WHEN to soak, not the owner.

Of course the shed skin feels oily, it is inside out. If you say it's still oily after unrolling that is because the outside part of the skin was in direct contact with the inside while rolled up.

[Reinz]

Solely on ball pythons, here's a quote from the Institute of Physics and the Bioinspiration Biomimetrics journal about oil secretion:

"...the royal python and a lizard called a sandfish skink – live in very dry environments and don’t secrete oils or other liquids onto their skin" (Greiger 2015)

I am no herpetologist--but as an evolutionary biologist, I find that citing and using empirical evidence holds far more value than stating anecdotal, just-so-stories. Although I did not look far into the nitty-gritty of ecdysis, perhaps this article can shed some light on how ball pythons (and certain lizards) locomote, and how the supposed snake oil does not apply to certain reptiles, especially those originating from drier environments, i.e. Africa. In fact, the "oily", smooth feeling we feel from their scales has a lot more to do with its structure and orientation. Now, perhaps this might not apply to boas and other types of pythons, but as I disclosed earlier on, I'm merely talking about ball pythons.

Here's a glimpse of the research if anyone is interested: http://www.iop.org/news/15/jul/page_65881.html

I appreciate this.

Maybe they are saying oils aren't secreted because of the lack of sebaceous glands. But there has to be some kind of lube for the shedding process. If it is not endogenous oils then it must be lipid (fat) like.

If water, from soaking and or the humidity is the lube, then why the oily feel? ( Rhetorical question, not a challenge to SnakeCharm)

I just want the real answer, not win any debates.

[Reinz]

SnakeCharm, I read your article. I believe my just so stories carry more weight.

That article is feferring to oils secreted to the outside of the skin as a lube for the snake to travel with less friction. It has nothing to do with oils for shedding or to make the skin pliable.

Sorry, that comment from the article holds no weight.