Spider gene

[Kaatje]

This thread is probably old and tired, but here's the sitch: I want to make spider GHI mojaves. Do you think it's cruel/inhumane to pass along the spider gene, or nah?

[Eric Alan]

This blog post by Justin Kobylka is worth it's weight in gold on this topic: Spending $ on Spinning Spiders... Silly?

[cristacake]

I personally think it's unethical. Most arguments for spider gene animals and other wobblers are about how good they are for the industry, for breeders and morph enthusiasts. That really doesn't sit well with me. These are living things that we're creating, and people choose to make them with neurological disorders just because they're pretty and sell well.

I'm always amazed at how certain some people are that the wobble doesn't affect quality of life. I just... Look at them. The bad wobblers really really seem to be in distress to me. Not necessarily physical pain, but I imagine it would be very upsetting to intermittently lose control of your movements. They look so frustrated when they're corkscrewing.

In any case, despite individual feelings/perspectives on quality of life in spiders, the truth is that we cannot know for sure how they feel or whether they *suffer* from wobble, nor can we tell to what extent it bothers them. So, at the end of the day it's up to each breeder to decide whether they think the risk of suffering is worth it or not.

[Albert Clark]

This ^^^^^^^^^^. However, what we do with the information we have is a subjective decision. I am on the fence when it comes to breeding the spider gene into any of my projects. Also, being a medical professional, i have encountered eppileptics and seizure patients and treated them. So, i tend to liken "the wobble" to seizure activity and as such has varying degrees of severity. It has to affect the quality of life. Mostly all seizures are treated with a medication. If it goes untreated, then for sure its even more complicated and compounded. Just my opinion. Hi Kaatje!

[Seven-Thirty]

personally I think it's okay to breed spiders but the fact is that they do wobble yes, and majority of the time the snakes will thrive. Of course it is up to you whether odr not to breed spiders. You just have to be prepared to either care for the really bad corkscrewers if they are eating or cull them if the wobble is too much for them to handle.

in my experience with the wobble it's not as bad as people make it out to be. The videos you find on youtube, etc. are generally extreme cases of the wobble. another thing i've noticed is that the wobble only really manifests itself when handling or feeding. The wobble also tends to sort of look like something of a balancing issue to me as well. When any of my spiders are on the ground or have a platform to support their head, the wobble virtually disappears. It's only when they have their heads off the ground does the wobble manifest itself. This is usually during feeding and handling as stated before.

As for the really bad wobblers, I think it's up to the breeder on whether or not to cull them or not. Like I said, majority of the time spiders will do fine and thrive and be more or less normal snakes except for a little quirk. (That's putting it lightly I suppose but I'm just going off experience.) My stance is that if it can eat without any assistance it is a perfectly fine snake to me. I haven't dealt with any extremely bad corkscrewers so maybe my opinion on whether or not to cull will change.

another thing of note is that the original male spider did have a wobble and was thriving in the wild but to what extent i have no idea but i'm 100% sure it was thriving.

My final note is that I wish people would stop bashing spiders as a whole just because they wobble. There are some that are really bad wobblers and some that are relatively normal or manageable. There are so many people who condemn others who breed spiders and it makes me sad because most of the time they haven't even done proper research on the gene's history and how they actually handle. I was on the boat on that you shouldn't breed spiders before but after handling one my friend had, I immediately acquired two for myself. All three spiders had/have wobbles of various degrees with some more than others but they weren't corkscrewing really hard nor were they struggling to eat. To restate, the videos you see on youtube or anywhere else for the matter that showcases a spider wobble is more than likely an extreme case of the wobble. They are stunning animals and the wobble is just a part of them and it just so happens to vary from animal to animal.

Sprry for the long post, I have more to say about the spider but I don't have concrete evidence to back them up. I am really passionate about spiders and wishing the bad stigma with them would at least die down partially when people learn about the history of the gene and how it actually manifests itself.

if there's anything I'm wrong about or missed feel free to let me know xD

[PitOnTheProwl]

My final note is that I wish people would stop bashing spiders as a whole just because they wobble. There are some that are really bad wobblers and some that are relatively normal or manageable. There are so many people who condemn others who breed spiders and it makes me sad because most of the time they haven't even done proper research on the gene's history and how they actually handle. I was on the boat on that you shouldn't breed spiders before but after handling one my friend had, I immediately acquired two for myself. All three spiders had/have wobbles of various degrees with some more than others but they weren't corkscrewing really hard nor were they struggling to eat. To restate, the videos you see on youtube or anywhere else for the matter that showcases a spider wobble is more than likely an extreme case of the wobble. They are stunning animals and the wobble is just a part of them and it just so happens to vary from animal to animal.

This right here.
All spiders wobble, the question is to what extent and can you notice it?

As far as turning it into an ethics debate...... The human race continues to breed. Think about it and look around you.

[cristacake]

@Pit, on ethics and human versus animal breeding: BPs don't have the intelligence/knowledge to realize that when they get put in a tub with a spider BP their offspring will be wobbly though. And even if they had the knowledge, they're reptiles and probably wouldn't care lol. But anyway my point is that we are artificially selecting them. Obviously, we can't control human breeding (well, we can try but it'd be called eugenics and very much frowned upon), but we can and do control BP breeding. There's a huge difference. I'm not gonna get into what I think about people who knowingly pass on genetic issues to their offspring because oh boy would that be a big derailment.

[Kaatje]

I don't mean to justify bad breeding ethics with... Well, more bad breeding ethics, but people bred pugs, boxers, mastiffs, Bulldogs, Pit bulls, and French Bulldogs into existence and ALL of the bully breeds suffer from horrible genetic issues including a proneness to hip displasia and respiratory issues. I mean, I don't condone breeding these dogs, but I'm just saying that if you are against breeding the spider gene, I hope you stuck to your guns and are against ALL genetic meddling such as this. I was on a buyer/seller review page the other day, and some commenters were BERATING a man for choosing to purchase a super butter with bug eyes. He got on and shot back that at least one of them probably likes or has a pug and thinks they're cute. SEVERAL of the Bashers came forward and admitted they had pugs, halfheartedly justified it, and continued to call the guy out on his choice

[Kaatje]

ALSO ALSO: if you're going to be against the spider gene, then you should be against all the morphs out there with issues like super butter, CHAMPAGNE (people love their champs) woma, caramels, etc.

[Rob]

This is still a issue going on?
Spiders have proven to feed, breed and thrive just like any animal. Some you can't even tell when they wobble some it's obvious, but it doesn't stop them from living out their life just like any other snake. If someone doesn't like that they wobble then they should just not buy one, but giving people trouble for keeping them is insane.


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