new morphs...

[zachman17]

Do all morphs originate in the wild, or are some morphs bred into certain animals?

also...i know it would be very rare, but is it possible, or has it been documented, that a morph has been created via captive breeding by a random genetic alteration during pre-natal development? a.k.a...someone breeds 2 normals together and one of the offspring shows some type of phenotypic difference.

[Shelby]

Most morphs are first found in the wild. Designer morphs are not, but they are just two morphs combined in captivity through breeding (ie albino spider).

It has happened that two seemingly normal animals bred together in captivity have produced morphs. I don't know about ball morphs, but the T+ albino BCIs originated that way.

I don't know about the second question.. I often wonder the same thing.. how did the first albino originate..? Were the parents hets..? If so, where did they get the mutant gene?

[Joe_Compel]

Do all morphs originate in the wild, or are some morphs bred into certain animals?

Like Shelby said, most morphs originate in the wild. The designer morphs are combinations that are created in captivity.

also...i know it would be very rare, but is it possible, or has it been documented, that a morph has been created via captive breeding by a random genetic alteration

Sure...it is unlikely but entirely possible. A morph has to start somewhere. It is possible that two completely normals can give rise to a mutant gene carrier. The gene or some genetic material mutates during the formation of the offspring and a mutant gene carrier is born.

Which came first.......the mutation or the morph?????

[RandyRemington]

RDR's Platy appears to be a wild caught combination (i.e. designer by nature) of Lesser + some sort of dilute gene. NERD bred an imported Caramel looking animal that appears to also have the albino gene. Strange things can happen even if they aren't very likely.

Probably long ago a het albino was born in the wild via a random mutation. This mutation could actually have happened more than once at different places and times. Eventually two hets got together and produced the first wild albino and eventually wild albinos where collected to found the captive bred albinos.

[Adam_Wysocki]

RDR's Platy appears to be a wild caught combination (i.e. designer by nature) of Lesser + some sort of dilute gene.

Really? Then what happened with all of those normal sibling breedings? Seems most likely that the physical dimorphism is something intrinsic to the platinum genetics itself.

I've heard of at least one case of 2 "wild type" ball pythons being bred together and producing albinos. The origin of the animals was unknown, but theories range from CH imports that were het albino to possible het albinos that were accidentally (or purposely) released into the pet trade, or a combination of the two.

DNA is designed to mutate in order to try and find "new things" that work better. The frequency of a single cell mutation ranges from between 10^-2 to 10^-10 which on a cellular level is pretty frequent. That said, the odds of anyone seeing enough random cell mutations to create a morph in a captive breeding are slim .... but there's always a chance that you'll find that winning lottery ticket blowing down the street!

-adam

[RandyRemington]

My theory is that the dilute gene doesn't have an effect without the lesser gene. That would explain all the normal platy offspring X normal platy offspring that didn't produce anything but that all the cb platties requiring platy on both sides. It's pretty out there but I did actually find a description of a dilute gene in rats that worked this way once (it only modified other morphs and had no visible effect on the normals).

[Adam_Wysocki]

My theory is that the dilute gene doesn't have an effect without the lesser gene. That would explain all the normal platy offspring X normal platy offspring that didn't produce anything but that all the cb platties requiring platy on both sides. It's pretty out there but I did actually find a description of a dilute gene in rats that worked this way once (it only modified other morphs and had no visible effect on the normals).

Wouldn't a theory that the difference in appearance is due to a deletion, inversion, or even a mitochondrial coding that is inherent to all lessers, platties, and lucy's from the platty line be just as valid? Someone familiar with basic genetics could certainly argue the same case for any of those codings as you can for the dilute gene with the breedings that we have to date.

-adam

[RandyRemington]

Certainly there could be other plausible explanations.

What do you mean by deletion and inversion? Are you talking about the nature of the lesser mutation it’s self rather than changes in other genes? Lesser could certainly be a different type of mutation (deletion or substitution) than other compatible mutations (Mojave, phantom) of the same gene but for it to vary within the lesser line to create some platys are you saying that the lesser mutation is mutating again to create platys?

Sure the sample size isn't huge but the lack of platys so far without inbreeding the lesser line makes me think homozygous for a 2nd gene. The tricky part is why that 2nd gene doesn't have a reported effect in all the breedings of normal looking platy offspring together. I think the rat dilution gene gives a good precedence for a plausible explanation. Of course it will take years to really prove anything but again this year should add some good data to help figure it out.

[Adam_Wysocki]

What do you mean by deletion and inversion? Are you talking about the nature of the lesser mutation it’s self rather than changes in other genes? Lesser could certainly be a different type of mutation (deletion or substitution) than other compatible mutations (Mojave, phantom) of the same gene but for it to vary within the lesser line to create some platys are you saying that the lesser mutation is mutating again to create platys?

Deletions and inversions are two of the several different codings possible for alleles.

Sure the sample size isn't huge but the lack of platys so far without inbreeding the lesser line makes me think homozygous for a 2nd gene.

What do you mean "lack of platys"? ... LOL

-adam

[RandyRemington]

In cattle there are two different breeds with double muscle alleles. One is missing the gene to inhibit muscle growth (deletion) and the other has an ineffective version of that same gene due to a transposed sequence (inversion?). It sounds to me like you are just explaining possible ways that the different leucistic het lines might be alleles - and I agree. However, I don't see how this explains the variation between lesser and platy within the lesser line.

All the cb platys have been produced by inbreeding within the line from the original platy. There have been lots of lessers produced by outbreeding but no platys have yet been produced without inbreeding. This is what makes me think the difference between lesser and platy requires being homozygous for a 2nd gene.