Okay,okay...you guys have won me over

[EyeLashViper]

:roll: Hey all you snakey folks,
Well, after reading the posts in Stormyva discussion of the pros and cons of feeding live vs. pre-killed, I have decided to humbly put my tail between my legs and concede that it is indeed a better idea to feed pre-killed or thawed or whatever it is you call it when the rodent is DEAD...I can see now that it is just a better way of introducing prey to a captive snake. I DO have some important questions though....so are ya all ready to pump some knowledge at me? Okay..

What is the best way to introduce a P/K rodent to a Ball Python ? should I just lay it there in the feed box and leave the snake alone to discover it ? or should I use the "Jiggle" method of teasing the snake with the rodent held by a pair of forceps ?

What is the best way to thaw these mouse/rat pops...??? in the past I have had a nasty time of having the abdominal wall of the rodent break open and leak ( yarg :x ) intestinal fluids all over the place...

Okay, now as for my Columbian Redtail boa...when she attains full size can I obtain pre-killed frozen rabbits ??? is that possible...??? I am aware of how much damage a rat can inflict on a snake so I can only imagine the wounds a rabbit could inflict !!! I am 100% committed to getting my boa on pre-killed !!!

I appreciate all of your insights and knowledge that you can share with me on this and the many other topics that we will be discussing in the days, weeks and months ahead. You are all a great bunch of people and I feel priviledged to be a herper amongst you !!!

EyeLashViper

[JamminJonah]

YEAH! (rubs hands together) okay here we go.

*DISCLAIMER* The following is my opinion and methodology in no way do I claim it to be totally correct or by any means the only way to do things, this is simply what has worked for me and what I have found to be successful /Disclaimer_off.

Section 1
FeedingPurchase a pair of tongs - I tried with the stato-whatevers and they are much harder than good old fashioned tongs. Be sure they do not have sharp tips for you do not want them to injure your snake - mine have little rubber things over the ends that look like sleeves. Take the thawed rodent by the middle to lower back and simply hold near the snake (too close may frighten) and try to hold steady. Being that it can take up to fifteen minutes for a snake to stop snooping and actually strike your hand will likely shake a bit simply from fatigue, this is enough to get my snake feeding. My caffeine intake is high enough that subtle shaking occours whether or not it is intended. Shaking too much may frighten the snake as well. I simply pinch by the mid to lower back (not butt nor tail) and hold the rodent near the snake (three to five inches away). Though it can take up to fifteen minutes *only happened once* my BP has always happily struck and eaten.

Feeding Tool(s) - I only use the Tongs now, those little guys are what I used back before I found these tongs - that card is the same exact size as a credit card for reference.


Section 2
Thawing
*NEVER THAW IN A MICROWAVE* though for some it may work and exploding rodent is NO FUN and almost inevitable at some point if you thaw in this manner. The best ways that I have heard of are-

The Zip Warm Method
Place the rodent into a zip lock bag and fill a bowl or bucket with hot tap water; NOT boiling, cooking is bad for the snake and can make the BP refuse to eat, or get sick. Anyways, hot tap water and let the rodent in the zip lock sit in there for about fifteen minutes or until the water gets tepid. Then re fill and do it again. For larger prey items it may take up to three fills. To tell if the rodent is thawed pinch the brain (the skull slows thawing in that area) and thickest part of the midsection (just like a steak the thickest part takes the longest to thaw as well) if these feel slightly warm you may well have thawed the rodent. Feeding a rodent even partially frozen can injure or even kill your BP. It helps sometimes to have the head a bit warmer than the rest as naturally the snake will strike and begin eating from that end due to the heat. (see "heat pits")

The Room Temp Method
This personally is the only method that works for me, I have tried the zip method and it does not work, it may be the smell of the bag or somthing. Anyways. I take the mouse out of the freezer about four hours before I plan on feeding and pop the rodent ina disposable tupperware deal and set him on top of the cage (heat rises). Then about four hours later I check to see if the rodent is fully thawed using methods stated above. Then I take the heat light and put it over the tupperware with the rodents head nearest to the bulb area so that it warms the most. I leave the rodent under the light for like five to ten minutes (remember don't cook!) and when it feels warm enough I proceed to feed.

The Steak Thaw Method
Using methods similar to above do what the title says. Pretend the mouse is a steak. Take it out of the freezer in the morning and set it on the bottom or middle of the fridge (believe it or not in most refridgerators the middle or bottom is least cold because the cooling rods are often at the top - at least on stack fridges) when you get home from work remove from the fridge and use the heat light warming method described in the room temp thaw section above. Or let it sit at room temp for a bit and feed without warming.

ROOM TEMP THAW:


WARMING PREY:



*THESE ARE BUT A FEW OF THE MORE POPULAR METHODS - CERTAINLY NOT THE ONLY ONES*

Section 3
Notes on F/T
Each snake has its own personality and each species has their own specific needs. For example I have heard that Bloods and STPs need their prey REALLY warm before they'll take it. I have heard some BP's are the same way. I have heard that some species are more seceptable to bacterial infection and thus the room temp thaw method could be a concern being that dead prey sits at room temp for up to five hours but I've also read that BP's sometimes will take already dead prey in the wild so this may not be as much of a concern for them. Keep in mind that each snake has it's own personality and feeding needs. It takes time to tweak the process and make it work for you but with some patience it will work out and remember a hungry snake will likely be more willing to take a F/T prey item. By this I in no way mean starve your snake but a week or two off won't hurt them. Just BE PATIENT and work with your snake and the process. Remember to avoid noob mistakes like feeding without tongs or feeding back to back to back (day after day attempted feeding only goes to stress the snake further and thus prevent eating). If it is unsuccessful wait a week and try again.

As far as converting to F/T - check out .. this... I haven't tried it only because I haven't needed to but in general these guys know their stuff.
http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ.html

Hope this helps and good luck with it all!

Oh and yes rabbits can be attained - this is the place I order from and it is VERY VERY VERY GOOD ... actually it is the best in the industry as far as shipping and quality that's why it may be a touch more than the others but you get what you pay for and as far as bang for your buck this place has it.
http://rodentpro.com

[hhw]

The Computer Method

First, put the frozen rodent in an airtight plastic bag (when I buy frozen mice from the pet store, they give it to me in a fish bag).

Then, put a weight on top of the bag and have it hang off over the back of your computer, with the rodent right located where the exhaust air comes out. Make sure there is some space between the bag and the computer, so you don't block the ventilation.

This is twice as fast as laying a rodent on a spare heatpad (2-3 hours), though I haven't tried other methods.

[gen]

Jonah, you rule!!!

[Aaron]

very ingenious, hhw! and jonah, thanks for the writeup, I learned a lot. I just switched to rats and I'm putting in my first rodent pro order right now I wish I had more than one snake... only filling up 18% of the package feels like such a waste.

Oh oh, and speaking of which, how many small rats do you think an average BP would go through before switching up to medium? rodentpro smalls are 4-6" and mediums are 6-7". Bongo is exactly one year old and 5" rats seem to fit him perfectly at this point. Should I order ten smalls and ten mediums, or just twenty smalls?

[hhw]

When you have 6 computers stacked all over each other making one room as hot as a furnace, you think of ways to make use of that heat (I am a UNIX geek who runs all kinds of hardware most people have never heard of)

Now, if only I could tap into that heat to safely warm my enclosures as well...

[Stormyva]

I feel warm all over.... Just kidding I think the heat from hhw's puters is blowing over here.
Anyways.... jamminjonah I think has put together one of the best instruction sheets that I have seen on feeding f/t. There isnt much else that I can add.
I can say this though.....
You will probably find that your BCI will not even hesitate to take the f/t.... if you have warmed it up enough. Put your hand on the head of the rat. If it feels warm, not hot, to the touch then it should be ok. The BCI will probably snatch up the f/t rat as soon as it hits the feed tub and coil and constrict it as if it is live prey.
For the ball python... be persistent... dont give up with two or three failed attempts. Keep in mind that BPs are shy snakes, dont intimidate them with the prey item. Dont hit the snake in the face or head with the f/t rat. First try to offer the rat simply by putting it in the tub and leaving it alone. If that doesnt work try and simulate the movement of live prey.
Good luck... there are many other tricks so keep us posted on the how things are going!

[Marla]

Excellent job, Jonah!

Two minor additions to the info:
1. Some snakes react better to more movement, some to less. You will have to figure out what works best for yours. I've had snakes that wouldn't even sniff prey until I walked away, and I've had snakes insist on dinner and a show.

2. Normal body temp for rats and mice is the same as humans. Some snakes, including Tigergenesis', seem to prefer feverish rodents, but in the wild the rodents they'd be most likely to encounter would generally have a body temperature between 98F and 101F, so that should be your target temperature range, generally speaking.

[JLC]

Jonah strikes again! Awesome job!!

[JamminJonah]

Thanks guys and thanks for the additions marla those are very good points.