Seeking Input From People Experienced W/ Respiratory Infection

[SquamishSerpents]

We have a snake with ongoing RI. She came down with it right before laying a clutch. I am thinking she was kept in less than optimal conditions before we acquired her and perhaps the stress of the eggs did her in.

She was first treated with Baytril and did well, but near the end of the vial I called the vet and said we were running out. He told us it would be good to just slowly wean her off of it with smaller and smaller doses (has anybody heard of being "weaned" off antibiotics..?) which we did. She was better, mostly, she started eating again, but she still had a few bubbles every now and again. So I think she was taken off the Baytril too early perhaps.

I really like our vet and he's a wonderful guy, but I guess I just don't always understand the "why" of what he is prescribing. Her Baytril treatment was working just fine so...why the change to Amikacin?

We are almost 6 hours round trip away from him, and can only get out there on weekends so it's not exactly easy to just run back to the vet all the time. We weren't able to get any meds as none of the vets in Squamish carry the medicine or are willing to dispense prescriptions from other Vets. We then went back to the vet with the snake, and instead of another round of Baytril, he prescribed Amikacin. It did absolutely nothing for her, in fact she may have even got worse over the 21 days we were administering The Amikacin.

We then went back a third time and now he has prescribed us Baytril in the same amount/dose as the first time, but instead of everyday, he has her on an injection every OTHER day. I'm afraid the meds are going to run out before she is better once again and I REALLY don't want to keep her on antibiotics forever.

And since I know you guys will ask, her temps are perfect, she's got a 92 hot spot (Cornel's World CB70 rack with 2 strips of 4" flexwatt) with around 80 ambient +/- a degree or so. Her humidity is perfect, her sheds have always been perfect. None of the other snakes are showing any signs or symptoms of RI, or anything else for that matter. The vet did a test of her mucus and said that it's typical of an RI and it's not stomach acid, so that is a good thing, he said.

The strange thing is she is wheezing and gurgling, and wiping mucus everywhere (which actually has cleared up really quickly since beginning the Baytril again) and she was holding her mouth open. All of typical signs of RI...yet she is still eating like a pig. Every time I offer it to her, she eats. Which is great. But I'm just so frustrated that so far no treatments have worked and I fear that prolonging this is going to make it VERY difficult if not impossible to treat.

I was also told by the vet that once a snake gets an RI, there really is no "curing" it. I am aware that there will always be bacterias present, but does this mean she's going to have this RI forever? Have you ever treated a snake for RI and NOT had it reoccur?

So, if you have any insight, I would love to hear it. I contacted Corey (thank you!) and he has told me Fortaz works really well. I was also told (by the vet) that Fortaz isn't really used up here because of it's cost. But I just really want my baby to get better, she is one of my favorite snakes. So do you think I should try this course of Baytril, or should I stop it and ask the vet to order me some Fortaz? I really don't care how much it costs at this point.

Thanks!

Also, just because it's cool to see, here is her xray from the first visit

[satomi325]

First order of business is that you should have gotten a culture done.
There are many forms of RI. And different versions of the bacterial sort.
Without a culture, it would be difficult to target the specific infection.

Bump her heat to 95.

She was first treated with Baytril and did well, but near the end of the vial I called the vet and said we were running out. He told us it would be good to just slowly wean her off of it with smaller and smaller doses (has anybody heard of being "weaned" off antibiotics..?) which we did. She was better, mostly, she started eating again, but she still had a few bubbles every now and again. So I think she was taken off the Baytril too early perhaps.

Never heard of 'weaning' off antibiotics. I would not take a snake off meds unless it is fully recovered.

I really like our vet and he's a wonderful guy, but I guess I just don't always understand the "why" of what he is prescribing. Her Baytril treatment was working just fine so...why the change to Amikacin?


We are almost 6 hours round trip away from him, and can only get out there on weekends so it's not exactly easy to just run back to the vet all the time. We weren't able to get any meds as none of the vets in Squamish carry the medicine or are willing to dispense prescriptions from other Vets. We then went back to the vet with the snake, and instead of another round of Baytril, he prescribed Amikacin. It did absolutely nothing for her, in fact she may have even got worse over the 21 days we were administering The Amikacin.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Baytril. It's overprescribed (default without a culture) so a lot of infections are growing immune to it, thus rendering the meds ineffective. Not to mention the Baytril 'burns' from injections.

But anyway, perhaps he thinks the Amikacin will be more effective (even though it wasn't)?
How long has the snake been sick?

Either way, a culture needs to be done. Otherwise your vet is just guessing in the dark and pulling meds out of his butt.

And since I know you guys will ask, her temps are perfect, she's got a 92 hot spot (Cornel's World CB70 rack with 2 strips of 4" flexwatt) with around 80 ambient +/- a degree or so. Her humidity is perfect, her sheds have always been perfect. None of the other snakes are showing any signs or symptoms of RI, or anything else for that matter. The vet did a test of her mucus and said that it's typical of an RI and it's not stomach acid, so that is a good thing, he said.

Like I mentioned before, I suggest bumping up her hot spot to 95.
I hope she's in quarantine and not in the same rack as your other snakes. RI is contagious.

I don't understand his test....

The strange thing is she is wheezing and gurgling, and wiping mucus everywhere (which actually has cleared up really quickly since beginning the Baytril again) and she was holding her mouth open. All of typical signs of RI...yet she is still eating like a pig. Every time I offer it to her, she eats. Which is great. But I'm just so frustrated that so far no treatments have worked and I fear that prolonging this is going to make it VERY difficult if not impossible to treat.

I was also told by the vet that once a snake gets an RI, there really is no "curing" it. I am aware that there will always be bacterias present, but does this mean she's going to have this RI forever? Have you ever treated a snake for RI and NOT had it reoccur?

WRONG!
He is just sounds like an unknowledgeable vet regarding reptiles.
Snakes can recover from RI. But it depends on the type.
There are several types: Bacterial, fungal, parasitical, and viral. Viral is incurable, but very very rare.
Most common would be bacterial infections, but you need a culture.

*shakes head*

I had a rescue who had a severe bacterial RI. She recovered just fine and never got sick again.


Awesome xray btw.

[SquamishSerpents]

Thanks for all of your input. It's unfortunate that it is so difficult to find a knowledgeable reptile vet. This is the most knowledgeable reptile vet in our area. There is one other but apparently he knows even less/has never kept reptiles/has no ties to the reptile community whatsoever

I had brought up all of my concerns regarding the bacteria becoming resistant to the antibiotics, like superbugs in humans. Antibiotics kill some bacteria, if you don't complete the course, the more-resistant strains are left behind, the more resistant strains multiply, therefore making it more difficult to kill and needing a longer, stronger course of antibiotics the next time. He said that's not how it works.

The thing with the Amikacin, I had suggested that drug to him in the very first place, but he said it's not as available in Canada, it's not used very often because it's expensive and expires quickly so they don't like to stock it on their shelves because it doesn't get used up.

Then all of a sudden (I guess maybe he did some reading?) He changed her over to Amikacin. I have read that it's a VERY powerful drug, but he also gave my friends snake Amikacin, and there was about 2cc in his syringes, (about an inch worth of medicine) and we only got about 1/16" worth of medicine in our syringes. So when I was dosing her it seemed like the meds were not even there, it was such a small amount. The snakes were approx the same weight. Don't know what's up with that. I asked him too and all he did was repeat the dose to me in mg/kg and say that it was correct. I'm not sure if he's saying he gave our friends snake an incorrect dosage...?

Yes she is in Quarantine in a completely separate room, it will be very easy to bump up her temps a little more.

And I figured I was also correct about the RI never being cured. Maybe he's never cured an RI then. I don't know. I just don't know what to do. I'm not a vet, I don't have the ability or authority to conduct any of these tests or get my hands on any of these drugs, so what am I supposed to do!?

[barbie.dragon]

Weaning antibiotics I think was a terrible mistake. It allows the surviving bacteria (resistant bacteria) to multiply

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[SquamishSerpents]

Weaning antibiotics I think was a terrible mistake. It allows the surviving bacteria (resistant bacteria) to multiply

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Yeah :S Like I said in my post above, that's what I said to the vet, and he told me it doesn't work like that...Siiiiiiiiigh.

[snakesRkewl]

When I had a snake struggling to shake a bacterial RI the Vet had me up the dosing to every day for a week and then back to every other day, somewhat opposite of what you vet said to do.
Mine did finally shake the RI after 3+ weeks of baytril shots.

I can't understand the vet not demanding a culture unless the vet wasn't versed in getting cultures from a snake

[SquamishSerpents]

Still absolutely no progress on this. Still no culture has been done, because I do not believe the vet knows how to do a culture on a snake.

Ran out of meds (Baytril) YET AGAIN so my snake is currently having ANOTHER lapse in treatment. I asked the vet for more meds far far in advance this time so that we wouldn't have to deal with another gap in her antibiotics, but here we are again. I stuck with the Baytril injections that he provided last time, as the Baytril DID work in the first place and I'm confident it would have worked and kicked this infection, had we just kept with it right from the get-go, until her symptoms had completely disappeared. I am ready to kick something. What to do when there is literally nobody that will help me? :'(

I have asked all of the vet clinics here if they are willing to help me out, give me the meds I need, etc. I know it is illegal to dispense meds without performing an exam on the animal, but the problem is nobody is even willing to let me bring the snake into their office for an exam. I even offered to NOT bring the snake and pretend like I did, and let them charge me for an exam, but no can do on any of them. I have called NUMEROUS other vets in Vancouver and none know what to do with a snake. None will dispense the Fortaz to me, nor do an exam for my snake. At this point I've even tried looking online to see if there was somewhere that I could order some Fortaz or Baytril, to no avail.

When I asked the vet for Fortaz, this is what I was sent:

Third generation cephalosporins ie Fortaz is something I have used. It's a single injection that lasts a month. I agree it's with a try. As long as your ok with the risks we can try it. Need the most recent weight

That is copy and pasted directly as it appears in the email...........Yes we have been emailing back and forth since the vet is about a 4-5hr round trip away from me. This also makes things very difficult.

But anyways. There is no such thing as a single-dose antibiotic that lasts a whole month. What the actual eff.

I've been talking to Corey Woods and he told me exactly what to do and what I needed but the vet is being completely uncooperative and not answering my emails or returning phone calls at this point. I'm screwed.

So in summary:

NONE of my questions are being answered by my current vet.
NONE of the "treatments" for my snake have worked thus far.
NONE of the vets I have contacted are willing to help me out.

Honestly. I am beginning to think I should just put the poor snake down and end her suffering.

[satomi325]

Do you have a zoo or wildlife center near by?
They should have qualified exotic vets. If so, I would try to contact their vet.

Or have another keeper ship you some?

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[SquamishSerpents]

I am trying to get in contact with the zoo, but I believe the vet I am seeing is the same vet they use.

[satomi325]

Yikes. Good luck!!